Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures  (Read 15733 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bloodline

  • Master Sock Abuser
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 12114
    • Show only replies by bloodline
    • http://www.troubled-mind.com
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #104 from previous page: December 24, 2007, 06:08:03 PM »
Quote

monami wrote:
i've just found a midi interface for amiga. where can i find a legal copy of cubase? thanks.


I always hated cubase, still do (all here know I'm a Logic Pro guy now)... For the Amiga, I always loved OctaMED for MIDI and sampling.

Offline Hammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 1996
  • Country: 00
    • Show only replies by Hammer
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #105 on: December 24, 2007, 08:28:15 PM »
Quote

DigitalQ wrote:
Quote

InTheSand wrote:
Errm... Windows NT was originally going to be based on OS/2, but this fell apart when Microsoft continued to develop its DOS-based Windows GUI instead of putting its resources into OS/2. IBM and M$ fell out, with IBM going the OS/2 route and Microsoft with Windows. The rest is history!

 - Ali


As I mentioned, it's a little-known fact.  When IBM and Microsoft parted ways, both parties owned OS/2 (as it was a joint project) and continued to develop it in their own way.  Microsoft slapped its Windows interface on it and called it Windows NT 3.0, while IBM proceeded with Warp.

This is further demonstrated when one discovers they can run older OS/2 programs under Windows NT.  Microsoft has an article on this at TechNet:

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/archive/ntwrkstn/reskit/os2comp.mspx?mfr=true

The compatibility existed because, for all intents and purposes, Windows NT was built on OS/2.

You are just looking at the surface.
OS/2 layer ranks the same as Win32 layer.

(OS/2)(Win32)(Posix)
(    NT Executive  )

Windows XP/2003/Vista removed OS/2 layer.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;308259

Windows NT kernel has it’s origins from VMS.
http://osdir.com/ml/os.reactos.kernel/2004-07/msg00034.html
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1509990
Amiga 1200 PiStorm32-Emu68-RPI 4B 4GB.
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB, RTX 4080 16 GB PC.
 

Offline Hammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 1996
  • Country: 00
    • Show only replies by Hammer
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #106 on: December 24, 2007, 08:41:38 PM »
Quote

monami wrote:
hi,

i will check out the articles. thanks.

some points seem hard to grasp thats all. if the amiga was as quoted a computer that could do things a 10000 couldn't do(earlier in the thread.) why couldn't they shift it for 1000?

atari "off the shelf chips"? they were industry standard. yam sound chip? used in their keyboards?

if the amiga was so revelutionary why did 3 companies turn them down?


Amiga brought the "GPU" concept to the mainstream.
Amiga 1200 PiStorm32-Emu68-RPI 4B 4GB.
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB, RTX 4080 16 GB PC.
 

Offline adonay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jan 2005
  • Posts: 1144
    • Show only replies by adonay
    • http://www.freewebs.com/adonay-/index.htm
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #107 on: December 24, 2007, 10:13:46 PM »
I dont think those screens look so much better on the amiga after looking at the video .. I would enjoy the game regardless if on atari or amiga .,..'
A1200 ACA 1230
 

Offline Hammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 1996
  • Country: 00
    • Show only replies by Hammer
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #108 on: December 24, 2007, 10:32:50 PM »
Quote
68K's had FP coprocessors too

That was Motorola's products.

Quote

There were no reasons for Amiga not to go in the 3d accelerator field, and chunky modes were in AAA

CSG/MOS would require some talent in building a fast RISC processors. During late 80s, SGI uses Intel 860 RISC/3D hybrid as its 3D accelerator.

Today’s 3D accelerators are FP processor arrays. Both ATI and NVIDIA have engineers from SGI.

Quote

Intel processors are fast now, but they have the burden of a 30 years old 8086 to carry as compatibility

Only a minor burden since X86 ISA occurs at the front-end of the CPU i.e. hardware/micro-code emulation/translation from variable length instruction (CISC) to fix-length RISCy ISA.  
 
This burden didn’t stop AMD and Intel adding SIMD, Out-Of-Order, super-pipelining (includes FP), Fused FMUL/FADD(C2D), RISC-core, quad-instruction issue(C2D), speculative instruction(C2D) and data prediction and any other DEC Alpha EV6 features.

The actual CPU implementation is a customised RISC core.
The variable length instruction (CISC) has an added benefit of instruction compression.

A modern X86 processor operates in modes. AMD64 (aka X64, Intel64, EMT64) killed 'Real Mode' 8086 compatibility.

Quote

They are also faster because they are produced in big volume

Unit sale numbers doesn’t inherently equals faster CPU cores e.g. ARM and MIPS.

What’s important are the people who designs these CPUs.

Quote

 I would love to see what would happen if a better architeture like ARM or PPC had dominated the PC industry. We would be way ahead of our time.

Won’t change much since the people who designing today’s X86 would be still building MIPS or Alpha or PA-RISC.
Industry players would be the same minus the X86 ISA front-end.

For example;
"The cache design of the AMD Athlon is very similar to that of the Digital Alpha 21264(EV6). The repeated use of Digital Equipment Corporation(DEC) techniques which have been licensed by AMD can be explained by the fact that the development of the Athlon was led by Dirk Meyer who was head of development of the DEC 21264 at theDigital Equipment Corporation labs."

Since AMD’s K7 Athlon shares the [d]similar[/d] same infrastructure as with DEC’s Alpha EV6, just replace Athlon core with Alpha core and run Windows NT.

The last known Windows NT build for DEC’s Alpha was Windows 2000 (NT5.0). This version was used internally by Microsoft to build Windows NT 64bit editions.

In late 90's 1Ghz race, both Intel's Pentium III and AMD's K7 Athlon has a similar high clocking nature (when compared to PowerPC group) as DEC's Alpha EV6. One of the major reasons was the break-up of DEC and subsequent spread of talent to Intel and AMD.

In the alternative timeline, PowerPC gets beaten up again in early 90's 1Ghz race, via DEC’s Alpha (or any neo-DEC teams).

IF CBM was alive, we might be using HP's PA-RISC and ultimately Intel’s Itanium (includes X86 compatibility).

Refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3DO_Interactive_Multiplayer
http://www.system16.com/hardware.php?id=575
Lets put
1. 3DO vs ATI (Mach32) in 1993 context....
2. 3DO's M2 vs 3DFX(Voodoo2)/NVIDIA(TNT)/ATI(Rage 128 GL) in 1998 context.
Amiga 1200 PiStorm32-Emu68-RPI 4B 4GB.
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB, RTX 4080 16 GB PC.
 

Offline AeroMan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Oct 2007
  • Posts: 342
    • Show only replies by AeroMan
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #109 on: December 25, 2007, 04:06:02 PM »
Quote

Hammer wrote:

CSG/MOS would require some talent in building a fast RISC processors. During late 80s, SGI uses Intel 860 RISC/3D hybrid as its 3D accelerator.

Today’s 3D accelerators are FP processor arrays. Both ATI and NVIDIA have engineers from SGI.


Agree, but they could use 3rd parties chips, like the Intel you said, or TMS3XX. Besides this, Hombre was expected to have a PA RISC. As this thing turned into industry standard, They would probably follw the others and use off the shelf chips
Quote

This burden didn’t stop AMD and Intel adding SIMD, Out-Of-Order, super-pipelining (includes FP), Fused FMUL/FADD(C2D), RISC-core, quad-instruction issue(C2D), speculative instruction(C2D) and data prediction and any other DEC Alpha EV6 features.


Those features are also in other chips like PPC and even ARM. It is a natural way to go, but the base stuff still the 386 architecture


Quote

Unit sale numbers doesn’t inherently equals faster CPU cores e.g. ARM and MIPS.

What’s important are the people who designs these CPUs.


Yes, it counts. Selling more chips measn you have more money, and this means you can hire the hot shots to design your stuff, and they can have bigger teams.
It also means you can pay better research, which is where the new technologies come from, and production lines capable of state of the art silicon manufacturing.
This also leads to competition. I can think about 4 companies doing x86 chips, and this means different people working on the same thing (more innovation).
ARM or MIPS could be faster if they find someone willing to pay for faster chips

Quote


In the alternative timeline, PowerPC gets beaten up again in early 90's 1Ghz race, via DEC’s Alpha (or any neo-DEC teams).


GigaHertz are very relative stuff. Apple had the fastest desktop some time ago with a PPC at the same clock that x86 ran. I see it is quite interesting what is happening with consoles, where compatibility is not a huge problem like desktops, but massive processing power is a must. Everybody is going PPC. Even Microsoft.
They could stand with x86, but Sony, M$ and Nintendo went PPC. The fastest computer in earth is a PPC array (http://www.top500.org/system/8968). It seems a good sign to me  :-D
 

Offline Hammer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 1996
  • Country: 00
    • Show only replies by Hammer
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #110 on: December 26, 2007, 12:41:13 AM »
Quote
Those features are also in other chips like PPC and even ARM. It is a natural way to go, but the base stuff still the 386 architecture

Emm, AMD’s K5 can still execute some AMD29000 RISC code....

Google AMD's K5 and AMD's 29000 RISC. You'll notice that there's nothing new with Transmeta's solution.

Ever since Intel’s Pentium Pro and AMD’s K5, all modern X86 micro-architectures are not 80386 micro-architecture based.

Quote

Yes, it counts. Selling more chips measn you have more money,

During the 90s, DEC’s Alpha didn't require the same sales unit numbers as X86.

Quote

and this means you can hire the hot shots to design your stuff, and they can have bigger teams.

NextGen (breakaway neo-DEC Alpha team) didn't start with large sales volume.

Quote

 and production lines capable of state of the art silicon manufacturing

TSMC's 55nm fab almost rivals Intel's 45nm fabs and has beaten AMD's own 65nm fabs. TSMC's 55nm fabs are being used for non-X86 AMD RV670 (Radeon HD38x0 ) stream processor manufacturing.

Quote

Apple had the fastest desktop some time ago with a PPC at the same clock that x86 ran

The claims was debanked with a K8 Athlon 64/Opteron e.g. Cinebench 2003 benchmark.

Care to restart PPC G5 vs K8 debates? Time dig out http://www.barefeats.com/ again...

Quote
Everybody is going PPC. Even Microsoft

IBM is willing to licence its PPE core IP to Microsoft.

There's very little chance that Intel and AMD will licence its "Post-RISC" X86 designs to Microsoft. Both do not want uber-Microsoft corp in the PC market place.

Quote
but massive processing power is a must

PPE (front-end) can issue two instruction issue per cycle with in-order processing while PowerPC 970 (front-end) can issue 4 instructions + 1 branch per cycle with out-of-order processing. In terms micro-architecture PPE is like PPC 601 (G1) with VMX, SMT and clocked at 3.2Ghz.
 
Most CELL's power comes SPUs. For X86 world, it has DX10 GpGPUs for stream array IEEE754 Single Precision Floating computation. AMD’s Radeon HD38x0 (RV670) can handle IEEE754 Double Precision Floating computation.

XBox360's Xenon PPE's shared L2 cache is clocked at 1.6Ghz i.e. half of 3.2Ghz core clock. Like CELL's PPE, this PPE core (front-end) can issue two instruction per cycle with in-order processing.

Quoting HPC numbers is a bit useless in SOHO scenarios. But, since you quoted it...
It would take about 958 AMD RV670s to reach "478.2 trillion floating operations per second". AMD and HP is targeting HPC FP math market with RV670 i.e. directly competing with CELL.

If we use Fold@Home as an indication, the non-IEEE754 RV570/R580 killed CELL twice over. Fold@Home has stated R600 is about 43 percent faster than the old R580.
Amiga 1200 PiStorm32-Emu68-RPI 4B 4GB.
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB, RTX 4080 16 GB PC.
 

Offline amigadave

  • Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jul 2004
  • Posts: 3836
    • Show only replies by amigadave
    • http://www.EfficientByDesign.org
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #111 on: December 26, 2007, 01:16:13 AM »
Hmmmmm, I guess this thread wandered a bit off topic!

Anyway, I hope everyone had a great day today (or yesterday).

I think the comparison video was very well made and informative.
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline DigitalQ

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Dec 2007
  • Posts: 91
    • Show only replies by DigitalQ
    • http://digitalquirk.ca
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #112 on: December 26, 2007, 06:53:12 PM »
Quote

monami wrote:
i've just found a midi interface for amiga. where can i find a legal copy of cubase? thanks.


You could dig out and run an old copy of Emulator's, Inc. Gemulator on a bone stock Amiga 500 and run the Atari ST version; but as others have pointed out, similar software native to the Amiga is so much nicer to use; why restrict yourself?  

I had a copy at one time, but I think I erased that disk to use for something else since there really wasn't anything for the Atari ST that I couldn't do better in the native Amiga world.   :-D
 

Offline Roger

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2007
  • Posts: 32
    • Show only replies by Roger
    • http://www.boinged.nl
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #113 on: December 26, 2007, 07:06:00 PM »
Thanks for the link! Very nice comparison video and very well made and also informative!... and it brings a lot of discussion also :-)
[color=FF9900]\\\'The best way to predict the future is to invent it\\\' informal PARC slogan[/color][/i]
 

Offline drHirudo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2003
  • Posts: 539
    • Show only replies by drHirudo
    • http://hirudov.com
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #114 on: December 27, 2007, 06:46:29 AM »
Quote

adonay wrote:
I dont think those screens look so much better on the amiga after looking at the video .. I would enjoy the game regardless if on atari or amiga .,..'

No you won't enjoy most of the games on the Atari which you like on the Amiga. Will you play The Great Giana Sisters on Atari ST without scroll? Come on - it scrolls even on 8 bit C64 but not on 16 Atari ST. And that's only a single example from many. :lol:

Offline DigitalQ

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Join Date: Dec 2007
  • Posts: 91
    • Show only replies by DigitalQ
    • http://digitalquirk.ca
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #115 on: January 05, 2008, 06:36:20 PM »
I saw this picture, and thought of this thread:

 

Offline TjLaZerTopic starter

Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #116 on: January 06, 2008, 04:03:53 AM »
great pic!!!  I'll make it my wallpaper on my iPhone!
Going Bananas over AMIGAs since 1987...

Looking for Fusion Fourty PNG ROMs V3.4?

:flame: :banana: :banana: :banana:
 

Offline amigaksi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2006
  • Posts: 827
    • Show only replies by amigaksi
    • http://www.krishnasoft.com
Re: Atari ST versus Commodore Amiga in pictures
« Reply #117 on: January 06, 2008, 07:13:44 AM »
>No you won't enjoy most of the games on the Atari which you like on the Amiga. Will you play The Great Giana Sisters on Atari ST without scroll? Come on - it scrolls even on 8 bit C64 but not on 16 Atari ST. And that's only a single example from many.

Probably works better on Atari 8-bit than on Atari ST as I have noticed with some software that does not require hi-res.  

I don't think a video clip does justice to either computer.  You can easily trick the Atari 8-bit hardware to show 32 apparent shades of a color and make a video which shows the Amiga with it's 16-shades and Atari ST with it's 8 shades per color, but that would not prove the Atari 8-bit was better than both Atari ST and Amiga.  Atari ST makers should have relied more on coprocessors rather than trying to mimic the Mac which was overburdening the 68000 CPU with the tasks the Atari 8-bit and Amiga did with coprocessors.

--------
Use PC peripherals with your amiga: http://www.mpdos.com