Is Eyetech pirating the A1200 Magic Pack software?

Vincent wrote:

Wayne wrote:

Is that piracy? Hyperion still get their money

It doesn't matter that "Hyperion still get their money".  It's still piracy, because your license will not say you can run it on alternative platforms.

I was thinking the same thing myself there.

But how does this stand under emulation?  It's on an alternative platform.  Would this mean that everyone who has WinUAE running OS3.5/9 are pirates aswell?  Even though they have bought the OS themselves?

This is a very grey area sometimes.

There's no grey area to me.  I abide by the laws of my country.  Simple as.

When I buy software I am free to do whatever the hell I want with it, as long as I don't distribute it.

[Warface]

There's no grey area to me. I abide by the laws of my country. Simple as.

Law is an animal. Some countries tend to breed very strange mutations, some are more rational. Some months ago BSA was questioned concerning it's actions and motives by our govt. They couldn't answer, from where they get their numbers about the piracy in our country.

[mikeymike]

It doesn't matter that "Hyperion still get their money". It's still piracy, because your license will not say you can run it on alternative platforms.

There are a few ways of countering this.

For starters, I'm sure the license you agree to does not specifically state whether you can use the installation CD as a drinks coaster, but would it be "illegal" for you to do so?

I'm not entirely for adhering to the letter of software licensing, and I'm not pro software piracy.  I'm pro my opinion of "fair use".

Another issue is running software under emulation.  My personal opinion is that is a "fair use".  However, if your contract allows the software to be run under emulation, which is pretty much "not running on its intended hardware platform", then it puts mdma's example of running a cracked copy of OS4 on alternative hardware into a grey area.

One might regard circumventing protective functions of the software as "illegal" (I put illegal in quotes as it can be by the law illegal or by the contract illegal), however I don't see any issue with legally purchasing say a copy of WinXP from a shop, circumventing the protection system so you don't have to give your personal details to MS, which quite frankly, IMO, they don't have a right to, and then using the software as a normal [legal] user would.  MS would certainly have issues with it however, and would if they wanted to have you over a barrel in court.

My personal opinion also is that there should be no problem with multiple installations of a product, provided they are only going to be used by the same person, and obviously not at the same time.  If you think about it, that lands straight back in the same court as software emulation.  I legally own an A1200, KS3.1 ROMs and WB3.1, however I don't use it very often anymore, preferring to emulate the setup instead on my PC.

Software piracy is not a clear cut line between right and wrong, because companies put things in contracts/license agreements that aren't really right.

I am also totally against any copy protection system that limits "fair use" or inhibits convenient legal use of a product.

The other issue is, would it be totally hypocritical if, with me and my opinions on this matter, to use WinXP in the scenario I described above?  I don't use WinXP, but anyway.

Another issue is, if anyone is of the opinion that the letter of the contract must be 100% adhered to, regardless, then they are basically supporting software companies to write whatever the hell they like into license agreements/contracts.  If your response is "then don't use their products", my response is "what if all software companies did that?".

[Cymric]

@Wayne:

We are now entering a very gray area where you are technically breaking the license, but are morally still in the clear. Or rather, not as tarnished as to say you've done something Despicably Evil. Take the OS4 example. I wouldn't call it piracy, on the conditions that you payed for the original, keep the 'cracked' OS4 to yourself, and don't use the original and patch side by side for extended periods of time, unless you have more licences. (A practical definition would be 'no longer than 15 minutes a day', for example.)

It's like the no-CD patches for games. *All* of my (PC) games are originals. At one point in time, I upgraded my CD-ROM drive only to discover that about half of those games would not work any longer because the drive couldn't handle the copy protection mechanisms. If I were to apply your method of reasoning, I would have to stop playing the games, and complain very loudly and bitterly to the manufacturer until they released new firmware, or keep exchanging drives until I find one which works. It is unlikely that a big company will release a software update just to please me, and computer stores don't like customers returning products in rapid succession. (I know of a store which would 'test' the drive, conclude there is nothing wrong with it, and deny me the refund.) So I used a 'no CD' crack in order to play the games. Are you now going to report me to the authorities for software piracy? (Truth be told, I discovered that the drive was truly broken, so I was able to get a proper refund, and buy a new one. I discontinued use of the cracks after I found out the new drive handled the protections flawlessly.)

[mikeymike]

@ Cymric

/me looks at my post, looks at yours, looks at times posted... whoa... :-)

[Alkemyst]

@mikeymike

I agree with most of your points.

Running an Os through emu is ok as the Os does not have to be illegaly hacked for it to run thus the OS can be bought in most cases with the coder getting paied, where as illegal hacked version can not.

If someone hacked version of X-
Box HALO for PS2, the chances of PS2 users going out to buy the X-BOX version to stay legal is nil with the HALO coders loseing out.

I can see at times why ppl want the protections removed as it can be a real pain having to type things in everytime you want to use it with amiga games but that rare to have to do that more than once now with more recent software.
The MicroSoft protection is just not on because its intrusive.

There is no excuse to remove non intrusive passive protection tho to get it to run on hardware it was not intened as you then open the software up to piracy.

The Software that a platform has is its leverage over the others and is used to entice you over to that plat form if more of what you want is available for that platform wich non of us have the legal right to break by hacking.



 

[Ni72ous]

@Alkemyst

If someone hacked version of X-
Box HALO for PS2, the chances of PS2 users going out to buy the X-BOX version to stay legal is nil with the HALO coders loseing out

Not that i would condone such activity, but how would they lose out, if it aint available to ps2 owners "ie made for ps2" they would make no sale to ps2 customers, so how would they lose out?

[mikeymike]

@ Alkemyst

If someone hacked version of X-
Box HALO for PS2, the chances of PS2 users going out to buy the X-BOX version to stay legal is nil with the HALO coders loseing out.

Presumably you mean they uploaded the ISO somewhere and everyone downloaded it from there, rather than buying the incompatible x-box version, then downloading the ISO [the way that supports the Halo coders]?  If so, I agree with you.

There is no excuse to remove non intrusive passive protection tho to get it to run on hardware it was not intened as you then open the software up to piracy.

Hmm, not sure on this one.
If you cracked software to run on hardware it wasn't meant to run on, say OS4 for example, and then made it freely available on the net, that would be wrong IMO.  If you just cracked it for your own purposes, or someone else cracked it for you, but you had bought a copy of OS4 already, that would be ok.  Just.  That someone else is probably doing something wrong as it is unlikely they know for sure that you own a copy of OS4 legally.

The Software that a platform has is its leverage over the others and is used to entice you over to that plat form if more of what you want is available for that platform wich non of us have the legal right to break by hacking.

Hmm, agree with you very slightly, ish.  However, the platform's advantages should be enough to entice you to buy it as well.

Don't you see that you're drawing a very fine line between OS emulation and what you were just saying?  Legal and illegal must be plain and simple, not a difficult to draw line.

[Alkemyst]

Not that i would condone such activity, but how would they lose out, if it aint available to ps2 owners "ie made for ps2" they would make no sale to ps2 customers, so how would they lose out?

Eaxmple: Hey i think i will get an X-Box because i can buy for HALO for it. The friend says dont bother get a PS2 as there is hacked version on the net for it= lost sale of HALO and X-BOX.

I bought my A1200 secondhand near new it came with 80 priated games & only 4 boxed games. the guy already had a pc when i bought it.
Its clear to me that he got the A1200 because of easy piracy.

BTW all pirated disk had been thrown away long ago.

[Rudei]

This thread is hilarious...

For starters, the reason people are buying AmigaOnes is for the AmigaOnes themselves, not for PPCUAE.

Secondly, does anyone really care?  I mean, the whole selling point behind AmigaOne is the promise of OS4, not outdated classic software from a pack which is approaching ten years old?

Thirdly, if Genesi were doing this, would anyone with any authority on this site bat an eyelid (me thinks not)?

Fourthly, if it is illegal (i.e. being carried out without licence) I find Eyetech a pretty unlikely source of mass software piracy - it could be an oversight...

Why is it people on this site have to get on their high horses over EVERY little thing a company within the Amiga community does (bar Genesi of course)

[bloodline]

I imagine Eyetech have a Licence to sell hard drives for the Commodore Amiga with this software installed.

But what we have to ask ourselves is the linux based AmigaONE in any way covered by such a licence? Assuming such a licence exists.

[Cymric]

@ Mikeymike:

Well, an obvious and classical case of 'great minds think alike'. Of course, I'm not a moderator, so I might be presuming a bit too much, but you get the idea... ;-)

[Alkemyst]

Hmm, not sure on this one.
If you cracked software to run on hardware it wasn't meant to run on, say OS4 for example, and then made it freely available on the net, that would be wrong IMO. If you just cracked it for your own purposes, or someone else cracked it for you, but you had bought a copy of OS4 already, that would be ok. Just. That someone else is probably doing something wrong as it is unlikely they know for sure that you own a copy of OS4 legally.

I agree but the chances of a cracked version of an OS staying in the hands of the legal owner is highly unlikely. Its just needs one person to make the cracked version available to the net then its all over.

Hmm, agree with you very slightly, ish. However, the platform's advantages should be enough to entice you to buy it as well.

Don't you see that you're drawing a very fine line between OS emulation and what you were just saying? Legal and illegal must be plain and simple, not a difficult to draw line.

The platform is the lesser priorty for the avgjoe [we are not the avg joe] as its the software that shows off the ability of the platform.
The the first i had seen of the amiga was on the way home from school the juggler demo knocked my socks off, wow i had to get the Hardware that could do that, AMIGA, nothing else in the shop showed anything like that, i knew nothing of the hardware at the time,even if there was better hardware in the shop at the time i new nothing of them when none was doing what the AMIGA was.

I have no problem with emulation as far as software goes as that makes no difference to piracy as to others useing the real hardware to a point tho because most [not all] emu ppl are not dedicated to the platform they are emulating and may be more enclined to use copied OS & software. but both can buy the legal version of the OS or SW.
But it is a loss to hardware sales if the software is exclusive to a platform & if that title is a killer leverage apps for the platform.

[Gaidheal]

Hmm.  Thread actually got interesting.

Well, I routinely crack PC-CD protection routines.  I do so for several reasons:

I think it is the wrong approach anyway, only harms end users and does not prevent piracy.

I don't want to have the stupid CD in the drive all the time.  My drives are valuable, I don't want them knackered because they are continuously being spun up and spun down merely to retrieve tiny packets that give a PUBLISHER peace of mind.

I have friends whose drives refuse to read certain types of protection.  I have supplied them with software that emulates the protection and 'clean' ISOs burnt to CD.  They all have the "legal" CDs they just can't use them.  My old laptop also had the same issue.

That bit about the publisher is important, by the way.  Case in point:  Neverwinter Nights.  It was their European publishers who insisted on the crappy protections routines.  I was able (had I wanted to) to download the ISOs for the game, with cracked protection, weeks before I was able to purchase it legally.  It therefore clearly did nothing to prevent piracy.  It did however prevent my friend from running his legally purchased product.  Ultimately the protection was stripped from the binaries, with a patch, by the NWN team themself.

Piracy?  What do you reckon?

[mikeymike]

@ Cymric

Well, an obvious and classical case of 'great minds think alike'. Of course, I'm not a moderator

Well you've got to have an IQ of at least 225 in order to moderate here, the discussions are always so educated :-)

@  Alkemyst
I agree.

@   Rudei
re: magic packs

Secondly, does anyone really care? I mean, the whole selling point behind AmigaOne is the promise of OS4, not outdated classic software from a pack which is approaching ten years old?

I have to agree with that too :-)

Thirdly, if Genesi were doing this, would anyone with any authority on this site bat an eyelid (me thinks not)?

Ick.  I think they would.  There are probably as many Amiga trolls as MorphOS trolls on amiga.org.  Please don't provoke them.

Why is it people on this site have to get on their high horses over EVERY little thing a company within the Amiga community does (bar Genesi of course)

It's not just here, or this community.  It is on every semi-technical, reasonably popular public forum I've ever seen in action.

@   Gaidheal
IMO, not piracy.

[Coder]

Hi,

This thread is really not about spreading bsh*t or something like that. It is about following the rules. What if I have a program on that magic pack and some years ago I made a deal for it to be spread with the Amiga 1200. And now it's there with the A1. What if I do not want that? You see, it's about that and not something else.

Coder