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Offline sdyatesTopic starter

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What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« on: December 14, 2007, 03:57:55 AM »
Imagine for a minute that Amiga Corporation never existed adn that Commodore never bought it. Also imagine that Jack never left Commodore.

Also imagine that Bushnell did not sell Atari and Jay was allowed to move forward with his Lorraine project at Atari... How different would the world be?
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Offline AmiJake

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2007, 06:56:24 AM »

Well lets see.........

Atari were games oriented (at that time) so possibly two things could have happened (accord to me that is)

1. Atari dumps the project .. it is too much computer like ie: no need for computer games platform (No AMIGA computer as competition).

Plus too costly (again no competition to base against).

Most probably it might be a short lived machine for the rich techno geeks of that period.

2. I would'nt be here, probly sitting in front of a PC all my life never getting to enjoy the magic that was Amiga or should I say the Love that Never Dies (or is that Waiting that Never Dies ) :lol:

Any case If Amiga never existed I definetly would have avoided any computers (all greek) in my life.

What a horrid thought! An Amigaless life  :-o  :crazy:

 

Offline coldfish

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2007, 08:22:02 AM »
Both Co's would be dead by now regardless, its the way the operated at fault not the products.  I dont think contemporary computing would be any different, just that that bit of the early history would be altered.

The 80's was all about proprietary, expensive closed systems - good riddance!  I'm happy we now have inexpensive and plentiful hardware that is open to anyone to develop for.
 

Offline Floid

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2007, 08:46:36 AM »
I'll bite, because this actually turns out to be a pretty interesting question.

First, let me link an interesting interview stumbled across while trying to figure out where Atari got their ASICs fabbed.

...

I wasn't able to find a straight answer for that, actually (apparently at least one rev of the 2600 TIA bears a 'S' marking, who was that?), so I'll try not to weigh that too heavily in the rampant speculation to follow.

First, ground rules:  Let's assume Jay got a green light to assemble his own independent project group to work on a multitasking computer capable of 'simulation-grade' graphics, resulting in a chipset similar to Lorraine.

Fact is, if conditions had been favorable, this could have worked out a lot better for both Atari and Commodore.

First, Atari:

If Jay proceeded at Atari, the team would've been a bit different, and software certainly couldn't help but be different.  In the end, many of the same compromises would have to be made -- RAM was stratospherically expensive, the biggest constraint on any design of the era -- but a lot of time pressure would've been taken off the OS team.

I believe Atari would've needed a solid fab partner or its own fab to produce the chipset for any use, and the nature of that deal would have had rather huge repercussions in the industry, especially in relation to MOS as supplier for the 8-bit world.

There would've been what, in retrospect, we can see would have been a major difference propagated through the resulting machine:

Graphics at 400 lines NI would have been supported in the first model; Atari didn't have quite the same concerns with sourcing monitors as Commodore did, and if the project were greenlit as a computer (requisite to keeping Jay there), it would've been accepted from day one.

In relation to this, monochrome monitors were relatively cheap at the time, and if the machine was capable of a crisp high-res display, they probably would've been the choice of many early-adopters.

With either display, it would have been more expensive.  It would likely have been more 'complete' at release time, assuming all the QC processes of a healthy Atari were brought to bear.  This would have made it very obviously a 'serious workstation,' while the same chips would rapidly be repurposed into coin-op hardware and, perhaps, larger stuff for the low end of the simulation market.

Atari marketing would've had as hard a time with it as Commodore's did in our universe, but the slightly more complete machine would probably have been an easier sell to certain markets (CAD, etc).  In the US, despite being a 'games company,' Atari also had wide recognition (via the 2600) as a 'big' national brand that, like Disney, might potentially have the resources to diversify into 'serious' fields... in contrast, even through the C64's success, nobody ever quite knew what to make of Commodore.

Atari had already started thinking about compatibility (at least between peripherals), something Commodore was still struggling with.

Atari would have had no more prejudice than Commodore at selling a sub-$1,000 model once that became feasible, something that would've put the likes of IBM and Apple on higher notice in a machine that bore more resemblance to products made by them.  (The resolution issue always made the Amiga look a little weird, frankly, especially in comparisons -- look at ArsTechnica's attempt at a Commodore-style comparison ad between the IBM PC, Mac, and A1000; while the capabilities are there, the display is half the DPI of the competition, even when the competition only had a character generator.)

...

Commodore, in the meantime, wouldn't have had anyone to 'rescue,' probably would've seen the CBM 900 or something like it to market, and together with the LCD could have had an interesting business system worthy of their full name.  They probably would've found a more-than-modest success in the UNIX market, with its own interesting repercussions.  The 8-bit line would've probably carried on, culminating in something like the C65 -- probably with more 'smart terminal' functionality built in, and Jack probably would've felt some cognitive dissonance until he could actually unify the big server machines (for the 'classes') with the next low-cost designs (for the 'masses').

Figure a 'reverse NT' situation, with an Amigaless Commodore releasing a next-wave single-user home machine for the early '90s, perhaps learning to monetize MOS and pick up free rights to interesting third-party silicon in the process.  Depending what CPU won out, this might've forced MS into interesting contortions, trying to stretch Windows onto that platform as well as the Alpha.  Also figure Tramiel, were he still at the helm, to see the potential in the Internet through exposure to the UNIX market, and push for it to be well-supported...  It's very hard to say what Commodores would've looked like by then, but they might've encompassed a niche between WebTV and the iMac.

Where Atari would be by then, what 3D gaming would do, and what (likely small) percentage of the market they'd retain... who knows?  At least they would've been in a position to adapt circa 1994, instead of already being doomed.
 

Offline unknown1

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2007, 07:17:17 PM »
Quote

coldfish wrote:
The 80's was all about proprietary, expensive closed systems - good riddance!  I'm happy we now have inexpensive and plentiful hardware that is open to anyone to develop for.


Been reading here for months, but here is my first post:

Open and inexpensive only applies to x86 architecture, I don't think that is very open!

I think the Power PC architecture is really better, even if Freescale is not developing it as fast as it should.

Here is the latest from them (though I don't think this webpage has been updated in a while, like everything Freescale)

Freescale MPC8641D

Another Note:
The GP2X would be great if it had Wi-Fi!
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Offline unknown1

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2007, 07:21:35 PM »
Quote

Floid wrote:
First, let me link an interesting interview stumbled across while trying to figure out where Atari got their ASICs fabbed.


Link is dead. Even a search of the site turns up a dead link...
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Offline Floid

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2007, 10:37:27 PM »
http://www.digitpress.com/library/interviews/interview_joe_decuir.html still works fine here.  See if it made Archive.org?
 

Offline TjLaZer

Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2007, 11:09:42 PM »
What would of happened?  Atari would of been known as having the better 16/32-bit system and Commodore with the inferiour one! lol

I imagine the Amiga would of been released more like a video game system since it would of been Atari, kinda like a XEGS type system with detached keyboard...
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Offline Floid

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2007, 11:29:47 PM »
Quote

unknown1 wrote:
Quote

coldfish wrote:
The 80's was all about proprietary, expensive closed systems - good riddance!  I'm happy we now have inexpensive and plentiful hardware that is open to anyone to develop for.


Been reading here for months, but here is my first post:

Open and inexpensive only applies to x86 architecture, I don't think that is very open!


The PC architecture was pretty easy to crack open for the 'free market'... and having "learned from IBM's mistake," it's pretty hard to imagine Commodore or Atari being any more amenable to 'cloning' than Apple -- unless, of course, they'd come to the same conclusion Apple did and experiment with it to gain market share.

I get the impression that Jay and others were open to thinking of Lorraine as a "chipset" as well as a specific machine, and as noted above, an Atari with an active coin-op business would have been thinking about using it in various devices.  In our universe, Commodore treated it as sort of a superior alien technology, which wasn't helped by rapidly losing all the people who designed it.

An Atari universe might have included an "Amiga card" for IBM and clones much earlier in the game -- which might have made things very weird.  (What happens when the card outsells the computer?  Could they have snuck a whole 68000 on there and been price-competitive circa 1989, and would they have leveraged that 'inverse bridgeboard' to drive sales of a full machine 'now with MS-DOS compatibility?')

Perhaps the chipset would've garnered enough respect among big customers to require a second source, at which point it would've become available, and potentially 'clone'-able, though a third-party OS would have had to overtake whatever was included to really make that 'open' in the sense we use today.  (Look where the Apple cloners wound up...  Of course, Microsoft, Microware and lots of others might've smelled opportunity...)

Meanwhile, a more businesslike, UNIX-ey Commodore wouldn't have been tied to a flagship 68000 at all, and depending on Zilog's fate, might have dove onto the 386 and 486 along with everyone else -- and a surviving MOS Tech might have gotten into the fray that begat Cyrix and even less-remembered names.  In this respect they'd be a lot like Unisys or Sun, big vendors who dabbled in x86 but weren't necessarily part of the mainstream no-name clone market.  Things could've gotten very interesting there, too, especially if they stumbled out of the wilderness with a dirt cheap UNIXey machine just as the opened Internet was picking up steam.  (Or perhaps their timing would've been off even if they went down that road, one never knows.)

===

Okay, someone else chime in, I've hogged this thread enough.  And I haven't put enough thought into how at-the-time heavyweights like Apple might've reacted...  [What was the FCC quirk that allowed the Apple II expansion slots and stymied the 800?  Or did Atari just get tired of the expense of shielding to meet specs?]
 

Offline da9000

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2007, 09:49:11 AM »
I'm not as knowledgable as Floid on these matters and intriguing details, but my understanding is that Jay Miner's foremost want / desire before leaving Atari was to move over to a kick-ass CPU architecture, the 68000. So at that point there was no "Lorraine project" floating about his head. At least I don't think so, that is :-) In other words, putting myself in his shoes, I'd be blinded by the awesome power and feature set of this CPU, so far ahead of its time, but concurrently be pressured by the "Atari mantra" that games are the way, and so my thoughts would be driven towards gaming ends. So, a powerful gaming machine that could be turned into a computer wouldn't be such a compatible view. From that perspective, neither would be a simulation-capable computer, etc. Thus no "Amiga".

Another thing that is an indivisible part of the Amiga, and an Amiga wouldn't be an Amiga without it, is the core OS (Exec, Intuition and friends). In order for someone such as Carl Sassenrath to leave HP as a top Operating Systems engineer, or other folks in similar situations, like Dale Luck or Ronald Nicholson, etc, to join a gaming company for a plain gaming console, would have been close to impossible, thus again making impossible yet another "Amiga". To be more specific, Carl was sold on joining the Amiga group when he was told "we want you to write an Operating System, but you decide what it is to be". He had just come off HP, having worked on Opearating System projects and collected a bunch of his own ideas and thoughts on them and was ready to blast them out to reality at the first opportunity. At Atari, I have a feeling it would have been more like "we want you to write an Operating System, and we'll tell you how it's going to be". Blah!

All in all I'm happy how things turned out... right about until 1993-4!!! :-(

As for the "open platforms", I don't quite buy it. Yes things are cheap today, but so was the C64 back in its day!
 And as for hackers and coders taking advantage of systems, I'm sorry, but the kind of hacks that I've seen on "closed" systems, top any hack that I've seen on an open system. I just don't think that 1) the world of "innovation" (I've come to hate this word because of Microsoft...) would have been NECESSARILY stiffled if we didn't have the IBM clone appear, on the contrary, one can say that because there are so few viable propriatery solutions today the IBM clone wave HAS dulled and killed variatey, and 2) the market pressure (buyers, users, etc, and businesses) would have forced equilibrium back into an overly overweight monopolistic platform.


And now to ask for some recommendations:
where on the web (other than the great Ars Technica articles, and wikipedia) can I find more "biographies" about the Amiga founding fathers? (some of my info I've gleaned from the CVs of those who have pages, such as Nicholson, RJ Mical, etc, but many don't...)


Amiga Forever!
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Offline da9000

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2007, 10:24:33 AM »
Since we're in this "what if" game, I might as well add something interesting:

So I headed over to the Computer History Museum for Commodore 64's 25th anniversary, and to get to see Jack Tramiel, Steven Wozniak, William Lowe and Adam Chowaniec talk about the good old days. I just can't describe how enjoyable it was and how many cool people I met, but I'll give some details (if you want more, just ask). If you're near the area and you didn't come, you really missed out big time (you know who you are :-) oh, and there was TONS of food, all for free! I should have eaten some instead of talking to interesting people all the time...)

So, after the main show ended, people stormed the "celebrities". Jack was impossible to get a hold of, and I didn't really have much to say in such a short amount of time (WHY? OH, BLOODY WHY!?!??). I got the Woz while he was leaving and walked with him for a bit, else he wouldn't stay to talk :-( Afterwards I got a hold of William Lowe, the "father" of the IBM PC...

I asked him only one question:
"Sir, why did you ever, ever, decide to go with such a crappy CPU such as the Intel x86 series, and not a Motorola 68000?" (note: if you've not done tons of x86 assembly programming with only 8 registers, 4 segment registers and overlays, you are *not* qualified to comment on the "crappy" part)

I finally felt closure on the matter when he answered (I'm paraphrasing):
"It was all politics. You see, IBM was very much a 'closed shop', and when my group came up with the idea of an 'open architecture', we had some heated arguments. Needless to say, the head of the opposition (I forget the name he gave) was very friendly with the Motorola guys. So we had no choice but to look elsewhere."


After that bit, I saw "a guy" with a bright silver + red Amiga jacket with the famous boing ball. And I commented, "Now this guy, has good taste! And not only that, but he was sitting almost next to Atari's founder!!" I was promptly told: "Do you know who this is?", so I said "No, your name sir?" and to my most enjoyable delight the answer was "Dale, Dale Luck". BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOING! :-D
I offered my worship appropriately soon after. Little did I know that who I thought was Mel Gibson (he really looks like him!) was one of the Amiga founding fathers! Also one of the MOST AWESOME DUDES I've ever met!

So anyways, we got to talking about all Commodore and Amiga stuff and he told me many interesting tid-bits, like how he realized they could add line drawing capability to the chipset with some minor modifications etc.

So then I asked him to comment on a little BIG bone that Carl Sassenrath had thrown out at us back at AmiWest 2006: "Is it true that the hardware guys at Amiga and Jay Miner had a memory protection scheme which required only a couple more chips, aka MMU, ready for the Amiga and Commodore decided to drop it because of cost?" And as he's preparing for the answer in jumps this other "unknown" guy who was nearby and says, "Yes, we not only had a simple memory protection scheme, but an MMU with indirect page tables and all, but it would have added too many delays in the memory paths, so it had to be dropped." His name was Ronald Nicholson, yet another famous Amiga founding father! Very cool guy and one smart motherf....ather! Yes, motherfather, as in mother and father of the Amiga :-)

So there you have it: the Amiga was very close to being UNIX capable without MMU inside the CPU, from the get-go! Talk about being ahead of its time... (WHY?? OH WHY, JACK!???)

Finally, I also spoke with Adam Chowaniec, the VP of Technology at Commodore and the one who oversaw Amiga's development from the time Commodore bought the company to the release of the A1000. To succinctly state his views, Commodore had no idea how to market the machines, business vs game machines, and by the time the 1990s had come it was already too late to stop the bleeding and turn things around, thus causing the collapse in 1994. I believe we'll be hearing a lot more from his side of things at some point in the future :-)


A relevant article with more on Adam's side of the story:
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9052598&source=rss_topic64


EDIT:
Sentences in quotes are paraphrasings of mine, so if the authors of said statements are reading and want to correct me, by all means do so :-)
 

Offline amigaksi

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2007, 11:56:42 AM »
Certainly karma factor should be taken into account.  You can try very hard (your best), but results just come out the same-- karma.  

I would state that one good thing about IBM being the top seller was that IBM set standards that are in hardware whereas Microsoft is/was setting standards in software which are not as good.  Doing a MOV instruction to the VGA memory (A000:0000) to set a color at a pixel location is much preferred over calling some bloated API function.  Doing a IN/OUT instructions to read from ports 60H/61H would always beat out a GetMessage loop on same system.  Now without hardware standards, you basically have to rely on API calls and complicate any real-time system analysis and slow things down.  
Commodore and Atari had hardware standards but they threw them away when they upgraded to 68000 based systems.  They should have left the 6502 (and custom chips) in the 68000-based systems.  Just a theoretical scenario.

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Offline Tomas

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2007, 01:19:52 PM »
Quote
The 80's was all about proprietary, expensive closed systems - good riddance! I'm happy we now have inexpensive and plentiful hardware that is open to anyone to develop for.

In what way was Amiga closed?? Absolutely ANYONE could develop for the Amiga, how much more open can it be?
The reason for Amiga failing can only be blamed on the management of commodore.
 

Offline itix

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2007, 02:25:50 PM »
Quote

Also imagine that Bushnell did not sell Atari and Jay was allowed to move forward with his Lorraine project at Atari... How different would the world be?


Atari would have bankrupted in 1994 and former Infogrames would be known as Commodore now.
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Offline da9000

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Re: What if Atari allowed Jay his dream?
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2007, 10:35:30 AM »
@Tomas:

I'm with you on this whole open/closed platform. I've heard others mention the same reasons for "the downfall", but it's so obvious that there was a larger hand in play from the C= management. (read my comments from Adam Chowaniec above).

One question that always comes to mind when I'm reading about the Amiga story is: where did all the money that C= was making through the 1980s go, when it came to the early 1990s? I mean sure, a big company has expenditures, but they also sold like 20-30 million C64s and so many other machines! Where did all the money go, in order to cause the company to declare bankrupsy? Isn't it directly pointing the finger to management? Anyways...

@amigaksi:

Do you mean left the 6502 as a co-processor or main processor? I hope you mean the former, because the 68000 was the only sane future for Jay and crew (even Atari, Apple, etc)