Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: The Sound of silence( cool computers)  (Read 8350 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline B00tDisk

  • VIP / Donor - Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2002
  • Posts: 1670
    • Show only replies by B00tDisk
    • http://www.thedelversdungeon.com
Re: The Sound of silence( cool computers)
« Reply #29 from previous page: July 20, 2003, 05:05:12 PM »
Quote

that_punk_guy wrote:
My old Compaq PIII-600 was brilliant. The PSU made no sound, there was a heatsink over the P3 cartridge and a nice big fan (so quiet I didn't even know it was there until a couple of days ago!) at the front to cool the CPU.


Compaq's Presario desktop PII systems (Slot1) didn't even have a CPU fan - just an aluminium heat sink the size of a PopTart (about 4x6 inches) that was directly in line for airflow from the front of the case to the power supply - that is, air was sucked in the front by the PS fan and blown out the back, and along the way passed over the CPU-HS.

Horrible systems overall though; they finally (?) abandoned the whole PCI-slots-on-riser-card with the later Presario desktops and just stuck the slots on the MB (900mhz and up).  I'm talking about the systems they provided for businesses, now, not home systems.  Never touched a non-business Compaq...
Back away from the EU-SSR!
 

Offline lempkee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2002
  • Posts: 2860
    • Show only replies by lempkee
    • http://www.amigaguru.com
Re: The Sound of silence( cool computers)
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2003, 05:37:46 PM »
if people complain over noise on the amigaone ppc (G4 800mzh) then lol.., i can't hear it...its there allright but i can't hear it.

its very silent and its 1/10 the size of a 1ghz pc fan.....

but u could always go for a silent capsule...

Whats up with all the hate!
 

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show only replies by Floid
Re: The Sound of silence( cool computers)
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2003, 07:04:53 PM »
Quote

B00tDisk wrote:
Compaq's Presario desktop PII systems (Slot1) didn't even have a CPU fan - just an aluminium heat sink the size of a PopTart (about 4x6 inches) that was directly in line for airflow from the front of the case to the power supply - that is, air was sucked in the front by the PS fan and blown out the back, and along the way passed over the CPU-HS.
This was standard operating procedure for just about any slot-CPU system made by an OEM.  (I'm not sure if any 'passive' Slot-A Athlons were ever shipped; common for the Intel camp, anyway.)  All was not roses, though, as some chips/OEM designs shipped with undermassed heatsinks and fans that weren't up to the task- bad enough on a desktop, but imagine a lab of machines that'd all flake out as ambient temperatures varied.  (This garnered specifically from a Slashdot post I read a while back from someone fed up with their specific Compaqs, yes.  It's not hard to imagine.)

Quote
Horrible systems overall though; they finally (?) abandoned the whole PCI-slots-on-riser-card with the later Presario desktops and just stuck the slots on the MB (900mhz and up).  I'm talking about the systems they provided for businesses, now, not home systems.  Never touched a non-business Compaq...
Believe it or not, the riser design is a standard - NLX or LPX, I forget which.  Deskpros were the business line, Presarios were consumer (and, after the launch of the initial PS/1 - iMac looking box, and a really neat looking 5x86? LCD lunchbox that I can't seem to find mention of anywhere nowadays, became mostly Generic Super-Socket-7-Motherboard in Generic Minitower Case... I guess they had a few with Generic Slot-1 Motherboard, too.  Someone gave me a really awful model from the Presario's transition period from 'luxury crap' to 'generic crap,' a hefty desktop with nifty integrated speakers and amp, stock with a K5 or K6 of some sort, driven by the worst/first SDRAM chipset Intel ever made for that Socket.)...  Risers would be great if the way they bolt them down didn't negate all the advantages.

After working with those for a while, you do develop something of a fetish for Torx screws.  (Gotta love the way they provide spares!)
 

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show only replies by Floid
Re: The Sound of silence( cool computers)
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2003, 07:20:06 PM »
Quote

B00tDisk wrote:
On the underside of each heatsink frost had formed, and yes, Virginia, if you stuck your finger to it and held it there your fingertip would freeze onto the HS!
Those were likely using Peltier elements.  They push heat across a gradient, given an electrical boost- cold side gets cold, hot side gets hot, and you'd better have a fan on the hot side to avoid burning the thing out (and/or having the waste heat 'leak' back to the thing you're trying to cool).  Things are:

1. They use a fair bit of electricity, 40W or so.
2. They can only pump so much heat; putting an underpowered unit on your chip would be like wrapping it in fiberglass insulation - worse than using a passive heatsink with good conductivity.  Sure, you're seeing it make frost in *air* (where the thermal load is effectively zero), but press a lightbulb against it for 20 minutes and see if the temperature at the interface is still that cold.
3.  It's making frost.  Frost is water; at warmer temperatures, frost is dew.  A Peltier running with enough power to cool as good/better than a 'passive' heatsink and fan will be getting cold enough (especially on parts not contacting the hot chip) to condense water.  This means you have to go nuts caulking and foaming your mainboard, socket, and cooling system.  The expensive active cooling systems from Kryotech use (used to use? I dunno if Kryotech's still in business) refrigerant and compressors, as in your freezer, and they had some sort of heating strip around the edge of their contact pad to avoid condensation.

This from a guy who killed his Socket 7 board with drippage from a few years of Peltiering -- and never got a solid overclock for the effort.  K6-2s had other limiting factors; cooling isn't the only thing that governs the highest stable clock of a chip.

Quote
They were, IIRC, "golden orb" fan/hs combos.
Golden Orb, IIRC, is Thermaltake's brand name for a now-ancient series of Socket 370 coolers, famous for looking bling, performing okay, and crushing Athlons to death before Thermaltake tried to redesign the clip, at which point more Athlons were crushed to death and they started marketing them as Socket-370 only.

Of course, anyone could pick up some Peltier elements, and thermal-epoxy them to the bottom of their favorite (cheapest) heatsink or fan.  It'd also be pretty easy to store your heatsinks in your beer cooler (or even better, one full of dry ice), occasionally swapping out a fresh one to awe the rubes. ;)
 

Offline Wolfe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2002
  • Posts: 1005
    • Show only replies by Wolfe
Re: The Sound of silence( cool computers)
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2003, 07:28:28 PM »
So the moral of this story goes:  Buy a PC and prepare to pay more to make it silent or be bombarded with noise.  :-D
Avatar Babe:  Monica Bellucci  -    :love:
 

Offline Waccoon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2002
  • Posts: 1057
    • Show only replies by Waccoon
Re: The Sound of silence( cool computers)
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2003, 11:13:38 PM »
I heard the Zalman cooler was not so great.  You'll need a loose fan in the case blowing right on it, anyway.

My dad and I both use an Antec case.  His P4 is dead silent in that case and it never even gets warm.  My Athlon, on the other hand, requires a Thermaltake Volcano 7 with a HUGE fan running at 3000 RPM to keep temp under control, and boy is it loud.  I'm going to try some Arctic Silver thermal paste and maybe a Panaflow fan to replace the stock fan on the Volcano 7.  If that doesn't reduce noise, I'll just buy my dad's P4.

Frankly, I've been regretting sticking with AMD ever since I bought it.  If AMD doesn't get their act together, cap their cores, and start working on intelligent throttling like Intel, I'm jumping ship for good.

IMO, case mods, like padding and insulation are a waste of money, very heavy, and next to impossible to remove.  Buy yourself a good, well-designed case with lots of slow-running fans, rather than patching the one you have with foam and carpet.   ;-)
 

Offline AdMartin

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 161
    • Show only replies by AdMartin
    • http://www.admonish.org/
Re: The Sound of silence( cool computers)
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2003, 12:18:13 AM »
Quote

Wolfe wrote:
So the moral of this story goes:  Buy a PC and prepare to pay more to make it silent or be bombarded with noise.  :-D


The same goes for any computer system with a noisy HD and/or noisy video card...  :-o

/Martin
 

Offline B00tDisk

  • VIP / Donor - Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2002
  • Posts: 1670
    • Show only replies by B00tDisk
    • http://www.thedelversdungeon.com
Re: The Sound of silence( cool computers)
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2003, 12:33:31 AM »
Quote

Floid wrote:
Quote

B00tDisk wrote:
On the underside of each heatsink frost had formed, and yes, Virginia, if you stuck your finger to it and held it there your fingertip would freeze onto the HS!
Those were likely using Peltier elements.


Nope.  These were fan/heatsink combos.  No peltier coolers to be seen.  The boxes for the particular ones were simple "generic" Taiwanese cardboard boxes with no mention of Peltier cooling.  Although he did have some of those, IIRC.

Quote

 3.  It's making frost.  


Well, the HS was just sitting on the table, "business side" up.  This is in Florida, there's humidity all the time here, even when there's not.
Back away from the EU-SSR!
 

Offline B00tDisk

  • VIP / Donor - Lifetime Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2002
  • Posts: 1670
    • Show only replies by B00tDisk
    • http://www.thedelversdungeon.com
Re: The Sound of silence( cool computers)
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2003, 01:26:30 AM »
Quote

Floid wrote:
This was standard operating procedure for just about any slot-CPU system made by an OEM.  (I'm not sure if any 'passive' Slot-A Athlons were ever shipped; common for the Intel camp, anyway.)  All was not roses, though, as some chips/OEM designs shipped with undermassed heatsinks and fans that weren't up to the task- bad enough on a desktop, but imagine a lab of machines that'd all flake out as ambient temperatures varied.  (This garnered specifically from a Slashdot post I read a while back from someone fed up with their specific Compaqs, yes.  It's not hard to imagine.)


Thank you, Deskpros.  It's not like I worked on them for three years or anything :roll:.  I swear I must be getting senile.

Anyway, the big huge problem we had with them was end-users trying to treat them like towers by putting them under their desks on their sides.

Problem: The HS was heavy enough to gradually drag the CPU out of the horizontally mounted socket; the system was never intended to be put this way.  Convincing the end users otherwise was a royal pain in the ass.  

Quote
Believe it or not, the riser design is a standard - NLX or LPX, I forget which.    Risers would be great if the way they bolt them down didn't negate all the advantages.


LPX.  The riser cards were just something else to break, and break they did...hate 'em.

Quote

After working with those for a while, you do develop something of a fetish for Torx screws.  (Gotta love the way they provide spares!)


Yeah, I always thought that was "polite" of them.  The later Deskpro TORX screws were dual-slotted; you could either use a flathead screwdriver or a Torx screw.  Did you acquire a "Compaq Tool"?  (Multihead screwdriver with a bajillion different sized Torx, flat, and Phillips heads).
Back away from the EU-SSR!
 

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show only replies by Floid
Re: The Sound of silence( cool computers)
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2003, 05:18:50 AM »
For what it's worth, this is a proper Golden Orb.  A passive cooler making *frost,* not *dew* on a desk in Florida?  Erm.  I seem to recall something about dry ice/liquid N2 snake-oil demos brought up in the 0v4rcl0ck4r circles a while back, but it's been a long time since that (and since the Golden Orb would ever have been adequate)...

Remember, a heatsink that feels cold *under load* isn't doing its job, and/or means your fan is overkill.  ;)  I know the Orb design(s), and the base was pretty massive, while the cute fins - especially on the Super Orb - didn't really soak up or transfer the heat that well.  However, a block of metal that hefty could easily stay cold for hours after a night in a freezer (or a night with your PC off), allowing for such sales tricks, and providing more than adequate performance for the casual user.  (My crappy Antec provided slightly higher numbers, with half the fans and a thousand less RPMs than my Super Orb, and the added advantage/cheat of its blow-on-the-chip-package design.  However, the temperature stopped creeping upwards as the box gained uptime.  That said, I've no fear for AmigaOnes with the Tt bling, since the wattages involved are nowhere near what we're talking with the older AMDs.)

Heck, if they were selling Peltiers, there's your answer- stack them on the cold sides of the peltiers during show setup, and they're probably chilled through by the time the rubes arrive.  How many people are going to stop back multiple times over the day... and of those, how many are going to point fingers, vs. laughing with them? ;)

Quote
Anyway, the big huge problem we had with them was end-users trying to treat them like towers by putting them under their desks on their sides.

Problem: The HS was heavy enough to gradually drag the CPU out of the horizontally mounted socket; the system was never intended to be put this way.  Convincing the end users otherwise was a royal pain in the ass.
Thanks for the warning, actually -- if I ever get back to adminning the Deskpro-Under-the-Desk, I'll think twice before putting it in a towerizing bracket.  That said, the SECC clips on my particular model seemed firm enough that it'd take a good earthquake to accomplish same.

Quote
LPX.  The riser cards were just something else to break, and break they did...hate 'em.
They're "interesting" to pull in and out, yeah.  On my unit, the AGP card would come with; if they'd made the rest of the cardcage removable in similar fashion, it would've actually made things easy.  Probably more a boon to their manufacturing, as they could doubtless stick populated risers in before clipping the mainboard to the case... or maybe they couldn't, seeing as it *is* Compaq.

Quote

After working with those for a while, you do develop something of a fetish for Torx screws.  (Gotta love the way they provide spares!)


Yeah, I always thought that was "polite" of them.  The later Deskpro TORX screws were dual-slotted; you could either use a flathead screwdriver or a Torx screw.  Did you acquire a "Compaq Tool"?  (Multihead screwdriver with a bajillion different sized Torx, flat, and Phillips heads).[/quote]Hm, I've met the dual-slotted, but IIRC they didn't cut/mold the slot all the way through, so you'd still need the Perfect Flathead Screwdriver Never Invented.  I had a cheezy 'PC Toolkit' I got one holiday, but it served fine - it's thin-slotted Phillips screws that always cause pain.

Right now I'm using an old Intellistation, which is nice in a different way - IBM used little bolts made of a similar Indestructibilium, with slotted heads, about 6 or 7mm high... and all the 3.5" bays have come with blue rubber damping grommets for the screws, while the 5.25" bays pop out *easily* with a single unbolting, and the goofy molded faceplates pop off to reveal equally-aesthetic standard sized bays.  Good luck getting the case panel off, though -- it's screwless, *if* you remember you're supposed to flex-and-shove it over its latch with the little handle provided -- and it'd require some major disassembly to see how they rigged up the built-on RFID hardware!  (Disableable in the BIOS.)
 

Offline Floid

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2003
  • Posts: 918
    • Show only replies by Floid
Re: The Sound of silence( cool computers)
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2003, 06:06:32 AM »
Quote

Waccoon wrote:
Frankly, I've been regretting sticking with AMD ever since I bought it.  If AMD doesn't get their act together, cap their cores, and start working on intelligent throttling like Intel, I'm jumping ship for good.
They have with the Opteron, and given the Danish? suit over crackable cores, seems like they'll be using it for the Athlon64 as well... especially since the first A64s will be in the Opteron pinout (with a pin snipped for whatever reason).  Meanwhile, throttling/safety-shutoff is available, it's just that mainboard makers are responsible for implementing the appropriate reaction to output from the thermal sensor included in recent cores; it's supposed to be enough to save your butt if your fan fails.  Everything I've read says the Opteron's (rather low) dissipation numbers are much more 'worst case' than prior figures, and perhaps lower than the competing Intel chips', but AMD does want the board/system builders to leave room for any future faster, hotter chips.

Which chip are you running?  You have to keep track whenever you go shopping, be it AMD or Intel; whenever any company makes the final push for an old core or process, the dissipations go to hell (and admittedly, AMD's been there for a while, but I gather Barton? was much improved, at least at the initial speeds.) ... admittedly, AMD's been in that unsavory position for the past year, given the delays on x86-64.  Looks like dissipations on the recent 32-bit ("consumer") chips are hovering around 50-60W nominal, with 70-something peak.  A look at the latest P4s shows the 2A at 52W/68W peak, on up to 82W/70W peak??? for the 3.20C; admittedly, "Thermal Design Power" has some sort of different meaning in that camp.  I have no idea if those are dogs or not, as I don't follow Intel, but it doesn't look too pretty.  Thing to remember is, the AMDs are designed to tolerate some heat -- as long as it's below the maximum, there's no reason to freak out over getting to down to 30 or 40C.  I'd cough up the current number, but I don't feel like re-retrieving the PDF, ugh.

For those who asked:
Athlon XP Datasheets -- Yes, you want the real datasheets; the thermal info is buried in section 7.1ish in them.  Durons and Opterons are linked from that page, over on the right.

Intel's P4 Datasheets are over here.  Section 5.1ish.

Meanwhile, if the P4 is ever throttling during normal use, you've got problems there.  Both companies keep shoving out Wunderchips somewhat impractical for normal use (a problem not limited to CPUs anymore, given the first GeForce FXen)... I'd suggest hanging behind the pack, picking off the 'sweet spots' once they hit the $50-$150 mark, depending on application.  (Of course, my last personal investment was my venerable 850, and keeping the upgrade path open is harder when courting Our Lady Intel of the Hundred Sockets.)

Best advice, even if I'll get flamed?  Examine your needs closely (as in: stop shooting for 30C), and try a vendor other than Thermaltake for a while.  They're the Abit of the cooling world, much loved for no apparent reason... and meanwhile, some Reg or Inq article pointed out that AMD are making their retail heatsinks suck less.
 

Offline Casper

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 214
    • Show only replies by Casper
Re: The Sound of silence( cool computers)
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2003, 12:03:47 PM »
Quote
Nope. These were fan/heatsink combos. No peltier coolers to be seen. The boxes for the particular ones were simple "generic" Taiwanese cardboard boxes with no mention of Peltier cooling. Although he did have some of those, IIRC.


It is physically impossible for a heatsink/fan combo to cool anything lower that the ambient temperature around it because it's based on radiating the heat to the surrounding air. The fan is only there to move the heated air away from the heatsink and doesn't do any active cooling. So this must have been a scam since you say that they weren't peltiers or any other such cooling.