Amiga OS4 on old (PPC) Macs

[arnljot]

Methuselas wrote:
I'd almost be tempted to start a bounty for some code guru to "liberate" OS4 from its hardware dependencies......  :roll:

If there was a bounty: Are there coders with the skills? Most of the good ones are maybe busy with Aros, and we'd want to keep it that way?

And the OS4 skilled coders would maybe betray their relationship with Hyperion if they solved such a bounty...

But I'd sponsor this bounty with a few coins... And surely if I knew that it wouldn't detract skills from the Aros pool

[monami]

i hope this would be on a mac laptop most!

[bloodline]

arnljot wrote:

Methuselas wrote:
I'd almost be tempted to start a bounty for some code guru to "liberate" OS4 from its hardware dependencies......  :roll:

If there was a bounty: Are there coders with the skills? Most of the good ones are maybe busy with Aros, and we'd want to keep it that way?

And the OS4 skilled coders would maybe betray their relationship with Hyperion if they solved such a bounty...

But I'd sponsor this bounty with a few coins... And surely if I knew that it wouldn't detract skills from the Aros pool

A better, simpler, idea would be to modify PearPC to run AOS4... :-)

[arnljot]

bloodline wrote:
A better, simpler, idea would be to modify PearPC to run AOS4... :-)

Yes I agree, but what is more likely:
a) UAE gets PPC emulation to allow 68k+WarpUP, 68k+Powerup and OS4?
b) Someone writes the Uboot + drivers that's needed for PPC Macs to run OS4
c) PearPC is modified to run OS4

I'd say b, with 0.1% more likeliness over c.

I'd most of all like to see a made real. But Tony is a busy guy, and has is own focus and priorities which he is entiteled to. And from what I understand from statements from him is that a is not much likely as he doesn't understand the PearPC code that good, and thinks that there are other things that is more important to put into UAE (like better CD32 emu and different cartrigdes etc)

Also I've tried PearPC, it's not a very mature virtualization product. A lot of fiddling in ascii files etc. So for the puritst, like me - I think something that would run on real hardware would be most fun.

Though, the case for PearPC is that then one would have a bounty with a future for OS4 as Apple doesn't make PPC Macs anymore.

[HenryCase]

Right, as far as I can see it, if OS4 has any chance of running on Mac hardware, emulated in software, etc... we need to understand how it works. As we don't have the source code, this means reverse engineering. When approaching this reverse engineering work, we have two directions to go in, from low level up, or from high level down.

Let's start looking at the workload involved and the potential benefits of both methods. One way to start at the high level would be to deconstruct the OS4 SDK. From there you should get clues about how the low level stuff works. However, you would not get a complete enough picture to design new hardware drivers and integrate it into the OS AFAIK.

Going from the low level, the most useful device to concentrate on would be the BIOS from the A1. Deconstruct that and you're laughing as drivers all need to run through the BIOS (in Amiga OS4 for A1 anyway), so you'd understand a great deal of what OS4 requires to run. This would require a lot of work, but there are some useful resources on the Internet for completing this work.

Introduction to A1 BIOS:
http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/press/1stoct2002.html
Based on PPCBoot:
http://www.linuxdevices.com/links/LK6257448893.html
http://ppcboot.sourceforge.net/
PPCBoot evolved into UBoot:
http://www.denx.de/wiki/UBoot

BIOS disassembly book (for x86 BIOSes but principles will be useful for all BIOS disassembly):
http://www.amazon.com/BIOS-Disassembly-Ninjutsu-Uncovered/dp/1931769605
http://www.geocities.com/mamanzip/Articles/Award_Bios_RE/Award_Bios_RE_guide.html

Simpler BIOS hack (probably good place to get started):
http://os-fun.blogspot.com/2006/05/modifying-laptop-bios-for-fun-and.html

Technical OS information:
http://www.osdever.net/documents.php?cat=0&sort=1

But wait, maybe reverse engineering the BIOS isn't necessary after all. If the BIOS in the A1 is based on code from a GPL project like PPCBoot, don't Hyperion have to release the modifications they made to the code back into the original project code repository? As far as I can tell they do, unless the PPCBoot people gave Hyperion their own license. That means we should be able to find the Amiga DRM code that Hyperion added somewhere on the Internet. Anyone got info that would help us track down the code?

Of course UBoot isn't an essential part of running Phase5 OS4, but it is essential to running A1 OS4 and by understanding how the A1 BIOS works we understand OS4 better as a whole (as well as giving ourselves new hardware opportunities).

[Hans_]

@HenryCase

DRM code in UBoot? I doubt it. That would be the silliest place to put copy protection as replacing the bios would eliminate it. I'm not even sure if there is any DRM code in OS4; the A1 or classic Amiga hardware are dongles enough as-is.

I doubt that analysing UBoot would give you much knowledge about OS4 as it only affects the bootloader that copies the Kernel modules into RAM. I doubt that it would be too hard to write an alternative bootloader; the second-level booter basically searches for a kickstart directory and loads the modules as per instructions in the kicklayout file.

The real issue remains the drivers, and the fact that the HAL is compiled right into the kernel. It would make more sense to decompile the Loader module, and the kernel. Someone who could isolate the HAL code sections would be able to create a patch in such a way that the patch code contains no copyrighted IP. Replacing the HAL is a sizeable task.

The sad thing is that working MacMini OS4 code is sitting on a hard-drive (or hard-drives) at ACube, but they're not allowed to do anything with it.

Hans

[Rob]

@arnljot

Uboot isn't needed for OS4 to work on Mac hardware.  There is no Uboot ROM on classic hardware.

OS4 will work no problem with open firmware as long as the boot loader is written for it.

[anakirob]

Persia wrote:

It's not piracy, if you buy a program it's yours to do with as you please so long as you don't distribute it to others.

This has been corrected countless times in this forum, but I think the following information needs to be included. This should clear up any misunderstandings about the Australian Intellectual Property Laws.

I retrived this info from the Business Victoria Website

What is intellectual property?
Intellectual property (IP) refers to 'property of the mind or intellect'. It can be an invention, trade mark, original design or the practical application of a good idea. In business terms, this means your proprietary knowledge.  

Although IP is found in the physical entities resulting from creative effort, the IP itself can also be traded separately as an intangible asset.

Think of a CD: when you purchase the item, you receive a disc, a case and a booklet. However, you also receive the designs, logos and the music on the disc. These aspects of the CD aren't objects that you 'hold' (i.e. they are intangible), but they are considered property that can be traded.

By buying the disc, you have not gained ownership of the artwork and music. Rather, you have gained the right to use them in certain ways. This is because these products are the intellectual property of other entities and are protected by laws governing their use, ownership and reproduction. IP laws cover a broad range of products, including:

copyright - for original material in literary, artistic, dramatic or musical works, films, broadcasts, multimedia and computer programs
trademarks - for letters, words, phrases, sounds, smells, shapes, logos, pictures, aspects of packaging or a combination of these to distinguish the goods and services of one trader from those of another  
designs - for the shape and appearance of manufactured goods

So therefore you only purchase the rights to use the Intellectual Property in the manner detailed by the owner of said Intellectual Property upon purchase.

Although personally I don't really care what I am legally entitled to when it comes to IP. Just as long as I don't get caught.

[persia]

Not to belabour the issue but the quote reads

By buying the disc, you have not gained ownership of the artwork and music. Rather, you have gained the right to use them in certain ways. This is because these products are the intellectual property of other entities and are protected by laws governing their use, ownership and reproduction.

Laws governing - a EULA is not a law, only Canberra can make laws.  In other words use is governed by what Parliament says and nobody need give a rat's arse about EULA.  In fact the information given deals only with clear issues such as look and feel.  Where, in Australian Federal Regulations does it say I can't run "OS X" on a generic PC or Amiga OS 4 on a PPC Mac?

[monami]

it's one thing that it's a law and another for someone to waste their time and rep upholding the law. in who's interest would it be?

[ferrellsl]

Why do threads such as this one ultimately devolve into legal arguments about piracy or what I can or cannot run on my hardware?  I wish the arm-chairs lawyers (barristers) would shut the hell up and leave matters of law to the judges, law enforcement and the courts.  This is a computer forum.  If so many of you are truly concerned about matters of law, go find a legal forum and bore them to death instead of us Amiga users.  Next thing you know, the arm-chair lawyers on this site will be telling me what I can and can't do in my own bedroom!

There's nothing preventing ANYONE from running Yellow Dog Linux on a PPC Mac and there's nothing to prevent Amiga users from running a hacked copy of OS4 on Mac hardware except for the fact that no one can confirm that the Moana project exists.  If and when someone confirms that it exists and it really works, I'll be one of the first to try it out.  So sue me!

[CLS2086]

I'm not even sure if there is any DRM code in OS4; the A1 or classic Amiga hardware are dongles enough as-is.

There is a Serial Number in each BPPC/CPPC.
This "feature" is used to registred MorphOS PowerUP...
It's already a kind of DRM  :rtfm:

[CLS2086]

@ferrellsl : Hans did confirm, and i'm quite sure that you can  trust in him for that  :rtfm:

[Raffaele]

Oliver wrote:
Please don't take this as trolling, but...

Apart from the hobby/nostalgia factor, is there actually any real reason to use OS4?

Small footprint OS with no resource consuming...

Easy to learn, easy to use...

Logical hyerarchical structure of peripherals and directories...

Directory names are easy to learn and remember...

You will take it all at your command, you control everything in the OS with very few applications:

"Info" DOScommand tells you what are the partitions and main devices connected to the systems

Snoopium, SnoopDOS or Scout, depending on the Amiga system that you are using, they tell you of everything running into it... (Malicious software could be easily spotted and deleted).

Now let see the three major competitors...

- Windows spies you... Try to use MediaPlayer in Windoze... it will send your playlist into internet spreading your preferences and telling it to Microsoft, which thinks that htey can use your music and video preferences to send you commercial advertising thru WindowsMediaPlayer..

You must use twek programs to get rid of this spy behaviour...

It opens a plethora of unwanted services...

You, the common Joe User can't get rid of many of these unwanted services!

Windows update system could run suddenly without the intervent of the user and download unwanted windows updates, not only those which correct windows exploits, but also those installing DRM systems on your machines...

You can stop it, but it pops suddenly in secret running in Kenrl mode, completely hidden to the user...

How Bad...

- Linux requires a degree in information Technology to be mastered...

Its system of directories it is huge and homungus

Applications in Linux requires lots of dependencies, and not all dependencies could result compatible with your hardware configurations...

The gaphical GUI named KDE it is elephantiac and slooooow...

- Macintosh MacOS X sure it seems an OS for anyone, but really it is a OS for geeks (its core it is a FreeBSD Unix like OS, and it shares all the difficulties of any Linux. It requires a degree in information technology to be mastered)...

But all this power it is hidden to the user who is unaware of it...

An interface for VSP (Very Stupid People) hide all the power of MacOS X underneath and the users continues being threaten as baby bimbo, and he stays close in a cage of graphical eyecandies...

Any change you made, the systems pops up myriads of warnings messages, and ballon help windows...

If you are an experienced user of Macintosh you can get rid of all these messages, but you must know where to put your hands and how to uncheck their entries in the vaste preferences system of MacOS X.  

But the meanings of it all is that Apple consider vaste majority of their users as baby bimbos who are uncapable to evolve to experienced users...

Only he who has the courage to dig the macintosh , he will become experienced...

The vaste majority of Mac Users are only unexperienced rich people who buy macs becuse they have a gorgeous hardware design... They can't even manage how to copy&paste, and are afraid of the fact that to eject CDs, DVDs you must put their icons on the trashcan...

(Really I saw people afraid of doing that, because they believed they will wipe out their floppy or CD contents by putting it in the trashcan...

Once at university I couldn't use a Mac II machine beacuse the day before, a girl mangled the floppy drive mechanism by extracting a floppy using a biro pen and a metal clip...

She didn't know how to eject it... LOL! :-o  :roll: )

The common mac users are just stuck to simple writing and navigating internet... Then they will stay forever completely dummy lamers.  :lol:  :-P  :-P

[Einstein]

Raffaele wrote:

Snoopium, SnoopDOS or Scout, depending on the Amiga system that you are using, they tell you of everything running into it... (Malicious software could be easily spotted and deleted).

These "system/security monitors" just hack the OS structures/exception vector table at runtime. These require the OS to either not implement "memory protection" (forget about *full* (real) MP), or if it implements that then it would additionally need to implement multi-user access rights to system resources, which *could* grant higher privileged tasks open access to the whole RAM (among other things). Without these functionalities all tasks are kings of the OS, and can therefore cause any infection/damage as they desire, including manipulating (hacking) these system monitors to make them *believe*.  :-D

[Raffaele]

persia wrote:
It would be hard for Amiga to compete without a killer app, actually without any of the "standard" apps let alone a killer app.  It can render web pages

Amiga browsers such as AWeb and IBrowse render web pages upto HTML 3.2 and no CSS...

Although nowadays vaste majority of forum sites, and newspaper sites are now full of CSS...

Luckily it is now available OWB Browser [see news here on Amiga.org] which handle both HTML 4 and CSS and then you can see any internet page...

can't handle html mail.

You can tell your mail program to view it thru external HTML viewers such as Strangé (pronounced as "Strange-eh")

http://alfie.altervista.org/soft/strange.html

http://alfie.altervista.org/images/strange.jpg



That uses htmlview datatype

It's video and audio editors are primitive.

Sure you are right about video editors... But take a look at modern Amiga audio editors...

Have you ever seen programs such as DigiboosterPro, or Sound-FX or HD-REC?



http://www.hd-rec.de/

  You can't open Adobe docs

http://www.flickr.com/photos/54643129@N00/714589386/

 or see flash on youtube.

For simply flash swf files the Amiga SWF player has just being updated two days ago

http://aminet.net/package/gfx/show/FlashPlayer

For common handling of Youtube, in MorphOS we have a good italian Arexx script TUBEXX, which performs all the task simply using HTTPResume and mPlayer.

Some OS4 users in Italy are porting it to OS4...

http://www.webalice.it/pgermano/tubexx/main.html

You can't edit raw images.

Digicamgui reads any Camera with PICTBRIDGE standard:

http://www.seal-amiga.co.uk/robert/amipodder/projects.html#digicamgui



PTPDigCAM:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/54643129@N00/712913997/

Also MorphOS ShowGirls could import various image formats such as RAW...

http://www.webalice.it/fulvio.peruggi/public/Pegasos&MorphOS/Articles/06_MorphOS_TLOS/showgirls_001.jpg

See also:

http://amiga.sourceforge.net/

And check there for ImageMagick suite...

You can't edit and host webpages on it.

Metalweb:

http://www.vapor.com/metalweb/



Amaya (available thru cygnix X11 engine):

http://os4depot.net/?function=showfile&file=network/browser/amaya.zip

http://wookiechat.amigarevolution.com/pics/amaya_os4_1.png
http://wookiechat.amigarevolution.com/pics/amaya_os4_2.png

Famous Apache web-manager (native on Amiga):

You can't open a Word document.

http://pegasos.jinak.cz/clanky/amiga_programy/final_writer.gif

Amiga Writer loads Word files upto version 6 or 7 (Word2000)

I do not remember exactly what of them...

Documents of Word 6 or 7 could be easily loaded and saved by any Windows Office Suite...

Who would buy it and why?  

Sure you have been away from Amiga scene from loooong time don't you?
 :roll:  :lol:  :-P  :-P