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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #44 from previous page: November 28, 2007, 11:37:11 PM »
Quote


Well... you can use DOS 6.22's multi-config booting option to have various bootup configs. I did that, had like 3 or 4 configs for various amounts of RAM and memory managers. For instance, Wing Commander liked EMS, I believe. However, many demos didn't want ANY XMS or EMS, just raw memory.
Yes, and that fussing around, I hated.

Quote
Using DOSBox is like using WinUAE. There's many people who just prefer the real thing.

Oh yes, I normally prefer the real thing above others, but I see dosbox more like a tool for the real thing, rather than being an emulator.
But, considering a 286 with a monochrome display, I'd say you're right. :-)
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline InvisixTopic starter

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #45 on: November 30, 2007, 09:49:28 AM »
Quick question... on my 486 DX2 50Mhz system, I recently installed a Sound Blaster 16 Value, and at random intervals the system's floppy and/or IDE bus and sometimes the mouse and keyboard seems to "halt" for about 5 or 10 seconds and then continues to run as usual, this needless to say is annoying when trying to play a game. The audio however continues to play as normal, without skipping a beat.

Any ideas what this problem could be? I took the card out, and it still does it, this is a new happening.
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Offline da9000

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2007, 03:09:09 AM »
@DamageX:
Interesting info. You win the crown for most esoteric and arcane subject matters ;-)


@Invisix:
I agree with your 486ophilia :-) And of course your Amiga comments! :-D  You have a nice Amiga system there, for this side of the pond. I've still not managed to procure anything faster than an 040 :-(

As for the Roland cards, like BlackMonk said: just too damn expensive at the time, so I never got one, never heard it, and so never ever looked back :/  SB was cheap and it did more than the speaker so it was good enough. But then when I got a hold of a Gravis Ultrasound with the extra RAM for the wavetable samples and 32 voice hardware mixing - man, that was it! I was done! I actually couldn't afford it at the time, but on one computer show I found it in a used parts bin for $40 (at the time it was around $140 or so), and I almost jumped in the box to grab it :-D

As for your halting problem, I can't think of anything. Try to notice if anything else happens (ex. is it only when certain games play, only when music is playing, only when drivers are loaded, what happens when you use a mod player like Cubic or something? how about any demos like Second Reality? etc)


@BlackMonk & Speelgoedmannetje:
I have to agree with BlackMonk: DOSbox is great, but it ain't the real thing for me either. I believe the diffence comes with people's personalities. There are certain people who are more prone to enjoying physical objects, touching, feeling, smelling (hey, stop thinking what you're think you dirty pervs! :-p ). Anyways, I'm the type that enjoys putting his hands onto things (round and soft with an inverted dimple at the center, har har har). For me DOSbox is great when I'm on a Mac and have nostalgia withdrawals, but if I have a real DOS box next to me, I'll prefer using that. Also on the PPC Macs it seriously needs a JIT - it's hard to get sound that's not choppy, and definitely not working well with many demos.

@BlackMonk:
It's interesting you mention Zone66. It was coded by Thomasz Pytel (scene nick Tran!), when he was still a teen, for Tim Sweeney (who went on to make Unreal/Unreal Tournament fame) of Epic MegaGames, who's also a long time friend, and he used his PMode32 code in that game, which was a "DOS extender" allowing software to use 32bit flat memory mode in DOS under protected mode (so true 32bit coding). Made a decent amount of cash by selling PMode32 (he and DareDevil) - because it was way faster and smaller than DOS4GW and any other alternative.

Also I agree with your other points. Win 3.11 vs Win95, etc. As for Novell's stuff, it wasn't that bad! It's mostly autoexec/config setup and some DOS based menu-driven config stuff. It was my first networking experience, with IPX and Doom of course ;-)
 

Offline InvisixTopic starter

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #47 on: December 01, 2007, 06:26:40 AM »
Tonight, I have achieved what I once thought was impossible... I installed a 1.2GB Quantum brand HDD on my 486. I say "impossible" because before, the system was only seeing ~200 megs of the overall total due to typical year 1992 BIOS hdd size limitations. I think the max the BIOS supports is 514 megs.

I whipped out my Maxtor Max*Blast Plus 1.44mb Disk which is actually a re-labled EZ-Drive software customized for Maxtor, but it works with any drive. It partitioned, and formatted the HDD, I installed MS-DOS 6.22 and low and behold DOS sees the entire 1.2GB! I ran scandisk with no bad sectors.

So yeah, my 486 DX2 is now officially sporting a wicked 1.2gb HDD; which was unheard of in those days. :lol:

Oh so everyone knows, the issues I was having with the 5-10 second "halting" were I believe a failing HDD. I could literally hear the poor thing "churn / grind" sometimes during idle times, HDD access, and during the Johnny Castaway screensaver, which it never did before; it started the other night.
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Offline CLS2086

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #48 on: December 01, 2007, 04:10:50 PM »
@Invisix : seek in the bios a '15-16mb hole memory' option and turn it on. SB Cards love it (even PCI ones !!!).
Keep the Faith !
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Offline jnordness

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #49 on: December 01, 2007, 05:03:03 PM »
Good thread. This post is bringing back memories. Someone put it very well, hardware just isn't as exciting anymore. I can remember my first 'modern' computer back in the mid 90's. It was a Tandy 2500/sx 386/33 I bought when I was 14. I can remember the day I bought a sound blaster and a 2x cd-rom for it. I was da man! Later on, I managed to get Win95 running on it, with a total of 10mb of ram. SSSLLLOOOWWW. I remember when I first saw a demo of Quake running with the 3dfx Voodoo card, and I had to have one. I think it was the bi-linear filtering that hooked me, because every other 'accelerator' out there still made everything look blocky. I still think the best CPU I ever had was my K6-233. I found out that the motherboard I had had the 83 mhz bus speed, but it was an early board, so the PCI bus ran at 1/2 of the system bus, so my PCI slots were running at 41.5mhz, and my CPU was running at 250mhz! I used to play Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries online, and with that setup I was ALWAYS the first to drop into the game, even faster than guys with dual P2-333's and twice the ram. Plus, the Voodoo2 looked killer with everything. Man, I miss the good old days. That K6 is still soldiering on in my mother-in-laws computer, even though I overheated it on many occasions (forgetting to plug the fan back in). OK, I'm done rambling as well.  :-D

Joel
 

Offline jnordness

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2007, 05:43:23 PM »
Ok, not quite done rambling. Doing some reflection on the state of hardware nowadays, I know now why hardware isn't as exciting anymore, at least for x86 hardware. When I got into hardware in the mid-late 90's, there were only a few different types of motherboards. The most popular was the socket 7. Remember when you could get an Intel, AMD, Cyrix, or even IDT winchip or Rise MP6 processors in socket 7 variety? The performance of the processor had to stand on its own merit, because one could test different processors on the SAME motherboard with the same peripherals. Wanted to go to a different processor from a different manufacturer? Just lift the lever, take the old one out, put the new one in, close the lever, and move a few jumpers. Now, one socket is for one manufacturer and one socket is for another. Going to a different processor from a different manufacturer (or heck, even socket. Look at AMD with sockets 754, 939, 940, F, AM2, AM2+, upcoming AM3) requires a change in motherboard. It seems to have divided the consumers (hardware guys), not giving them as much variety as before (or, too much variety, depending on how you look at it). I SWEAR I'm done rambling now!

Joel
 

Offline Hodgkinson

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2007, 06:10:29 PM »
FYI, I've got a Extended ISA GFX board from those days, plus some ISA serial/parallel port cards and a few other things (386 CPU somewhere) of anyone can make use of them.

Hodgkinson.
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Offline InvisixTopic starter

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2007, 08:34:15 PM »
@jnordness

Thanks for your post, I have to agree with what you stated in your "rambling", but I would also like to add that the lackluster of todays hardware also is that NOTHING has changed in the x86 world except for faster speeds, don't give me that "64-BIT!" which is utter bull, considering 98% of companies still code in 32-bit code. There are more 64-bit Linux users than 64-bit Windows users. "DUAL CORE! QUAD CORE!" *yawn* we had those since 386 days, just it was dual CPU, or quad CPU instead of all being on one die. Further more dual core, quad core, etc are all HYPE, it's not as if, for example, that a 3Ghz dual core CPU is running at 3Ghz each core, no it means each core is running at 1.5Ghz for a combined speed of 3Ghz. You'll be suprised the amount of people that are fooled into thinking that their system is running at 6Ghz. :lol:

The same goes for 3d accelerators; but I admit 3d accelerators are finally to a point where games are starting to look more like CGI quality but has along ways to go... due to x86 architecture limiations. I wonder when graphic card companies are going to finally come to the conclusion that the cards theoretical specs could be realtime specs if modern day CPU's were actually designed specifically for graphics hardware.

My opinion is this... the industry needs to go back to the custom chip set-ups of yesteryear for PC gaming... no wait... those already exist, they are called gaming consoles. :lol:

Seriously though, my theory is that PC 3D gaming is going to reach it's peak in a few years, and it's going to call for a drastic update in CPU arch in order to push on. 8-)
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Offline Hodgkinson

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2007, 06:29:36 PM »
I do believe that one of my friends told me that Pentium processors were actually something like 4 Intel 8080's strapped together...No wonder he hates x86 processors over 68k's...

Hmmm. Does that imply that modern Pentium processors could in fact just be a few thousand 8080's strapped together...lol...? :-D
Nah...But I wouldn't be surprised if great chunks of modern processors are still like 8080's...

Hey, re dual core/quad core processors...I wonder how much processing power the extra software is using to control the two cores? And what improvement does having 2 cores at 1.5Ghz have over 1 at 3Ghz :roll: ???
Besides, turning a core off when its not in use is nothing new...my Dell 400Mhz laptop just throttles back the processor to save power...

Oh, that reminds me...Why are features on the dies having to be made smaller and smaller? Why not just make larger dies?

Hodgkinson.

EDIT: Theres got to be a limit to how many cores you can actually use...Either you're going to have more cores than applications (Errm...having said that the "Processes" list in XP is rather long...), or the processing power required to split a application over more cores is larger than the benifit of using the multiple cores...
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Offline Zac67

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2007, 07:04:43 PM »
Applications are not split across several cores, the software has to emplore several threads that can get distributed across the cores - OS overhead is low, but if thread interdependance grows it can become a real problem.

The cost of a die is largely proportional to the area of the die (growing a bit faster due to lower yields with larger area dice) - that's why currently Intel's 45nm CPUs can easily beat AMD's 65nm CPU range in respect to pricing.
 

Offline Hodgkinson

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2007, 07:14:07 PM »
Ah. I thought cost might have somthing to do with the die size.

Re multiple cores, since I've got a few 68020 PGA's on boards in the garage, I tinkered with the idea of somehow using the two CPUs to double the system speed by staggering the clock pulses. I instantly ditched the idea as many commands need multiple clock pulses to execute/load/output data, and any on-chip memory would create real problems.
It would probably need a full kickstart rewrite, as in the A5000 system.

Shame I've heard so little of the transputer system. Sigh. If only you could just strap pins on processors in parallel and get twice the processing power :-)

Hodgkinson.  
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Offline InvisixTopic starter

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2007, 11:25:38 PM »
Quote

Hodgkinson wrote:
Hey, re dual core/quad core processors...I wonder how much processing power the extra software is using to control the two cores? And what improvement does having 2 cores at 1.5Ghz have over 1 at 3Ghz :roll: ???
Besides, turning a core off when its not in use is nothing new...my Dell 400Mhz laptop just throttles back the processor to save power...


Hodgkinson.


That was my point, why it I said multiple core CPU's are nothing but hype... there is no improvement of having multiple CPU cores over a single core with the same Mhz/Ghz. It's a marketing gimmick.  :rtfm:
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Offline da9000

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2007, 01:54:21 PM »
OK guys, nostalgia is good, but ignorance is also not bliss, it's poverty (of the mind and the intellect in this case).

I don't know of any dual core that is rated as low as 1.5Ghz. If it's sold as 1.5Ghz then that means BOTH cores run at that speed. Most dual cores are around the 2-2.5+ Ghz range right now, and that gives an ADDITIVE or TOTAL speed of 4-5Ghz.

Now, the issue is not that those machines aren't 4-5Ghz fast. They *ARE*, if you have the RIGHT software. Thus the problem is with software. You see, hardware has advanced much faster than software. Although the hardware advance, to be honest, wasn't an advance that required as much intellect - just take 1 CPU core and stitch it together with another on the same die - big wooptie doo.

Now back to software: software is DUMB DUMB DUMB (disclaimer: I'm a software engineer). You see, even though these monster machines have 2 or 4 or 8 or however many cores, the software isn't at the stage of intelligence where it can distribute itself all over those cores to take advantage.

This is the current state of how multi-cores are being utilized:

Normally, when you run a modern OS, you have multiple applications running. They usually run on different cores (sometimes they migrate between cores, which is time consuming and wasteful - forcing them to a certain core gets rid of this waste - this is called CPU affinity). This works well for servers where multiple version of a web server (ex. apache), or other software is run (for dynamic pages you'd run multiple Python, PHP, Ruby, Lua, etc. scripts, one for each page that gets "hit").

But if you're a desktop user, you don't normally run many power hungry apps. Even if you run 10 programs "at the same time", like office productivty tools, they're still just WAITING for you to type or move the mouse. When you *really* want performance is when you've got one power hungry app, like a hardcore game, like Crysis, Quake 4, etc.

Like previously mentioned, one way to utilize more than 1 core in such a circumstance is to use threads. Threads basically allow a program to run parts of itself as separate processes, thus on more than 1 core. The problem though is that thread programming is 1) hard (very error prone to what are known as race and deadlock conditions) 2) wasteful as you need to spend a lot of time synchronizing threads (because they must communicate their results with each other, or the main thread) and 3) there's only so much you can do with threads before things get unwieldy.

An example for 3) is a game where it uses thread A for main game logic, thread B for sound, thread C for graphics. If most of your execution time is spent (typically this is the case) on thread C, and you have 4 cores, then it's not good enough to only have 3 threads. You really want to break thread C into multiple threads again, so that it gets divided among all CPUs. But even with 4 threads, you soon realize that sound processing doesn't really fully use its core. So you want to break down the expensive graphics thread to even more sub-threads. And thus the nightmare begins: should it work on 2 cores? 4 cores? 8 cores? Heck, you say let's make it dynamic to adjust depending on cores. But then, as already mentioned, you hit the dreaded "iso-efficiency" problems: more "overhead work" versus "useful work", because you're spending all your time distributing the work, which is in too small packets for too much effort, while it would have been efficient to keep larger packets of work on fewer cores. This is known as the granularity level. Too fine granularity and you've got more overhead than actual work being done. Too coarse granularity and you're under-utilizing your cores because the chunks aren't split in enough pieces to fill the cores.

This was also in effect a real problem with PPC Amigas as well: without the extra effort by the programmers to split the work between the 68k and the PPC, there was no benefit to the "dual CPU" PPC cards. And also very real was the fact that switching between the PPC and the 68k had a lot of overhead time.

As you can see, this is soon a nightmare of huge proportions. So people thought: why not make the computers solve this problem. Onto the next section:

One of the *real big* problems that a major portion of the software industry and lots of us computer science majors are facing today, as far as advancing towards the multi-core/super-parallel future, is in the compilers. If compilers were smart enough to break down execution of code so that the programmer doesn't have to spend tons and tons of hours to write parallelizable code, then you could simply recompile your code to use more cores and it would work faster and better. Unfortunately due to the some of the reasons mentioned above such compilers are extremely hard to get right, and there isn't really any one that has accomplished this to a great extent, as of yet.

Now some theory (ramblings). Part of the problem I believe is in our programming paradigms. We view programming like we always have, and using languages that we always have used. Like common speech, I believe language is an enabler and an inhibiter. If your language isn't capable of letting you express a certain class of thoughts, you might never ever have thoughts of such a class in your brain. It can hold you back. On the other hand, if the language enables you to have thoughts of higher levels, due to higher levels of complexity and expression, then I believe you will be endowed with more expressive and thus more complicated and possibly more intelligent thoughts. This I believe holds for computer languages as well.

We're currently stuck with some very very bad technologies, as mentioned before. Although I enjoyed my x86 years, and I did years of intel assembly, the instruction set was horrible compared to the 68000. As a programmer I always wanted to have the 16 general purpose registers offered by the 68000 - but only got 8. This stupid x86 ISA is *still* here, in all 64bit chips (although they are internally RISC-like, they convert x86 ISA to micro-ops, and execute those). Another major problem is the Von Neuman architecture. Computers work on the principle of Fetch instruction - Decode instruction - Execute instruction - Store result. This limits us to certain subsets of problems or approaches to problem solving (ex: SIMD by default operate on multiple data chunks - this changes the way you program when using SIMD - you think in parallel by default). Think of anti-machines as a totally inverted example of how computing can be achieved (this field seems ever more hopeful a future with the advent of FPGAs and reconfigurable chips). Then there are biological computing devices which work on different principles (just to give a small example, the neurons in your brain not only work based on a "flat model" of connections, but depending where on the neuron's surface, which is 3D dimensional, a connection is made, makes a real difference in the results), and even quantum computing devices on yet other principles. Another major problem in my opinion is the stagnation of the masses, pioneered by none other than Microsoft and their technologies. They have dominated the software market for decades with C++, which is an extremely unclean and really retarded object oriented language, which has shown very little innovation and ability to literally break through the old programming paradigm expressions onto a new playing field.

Anyways, enough about the non-existant "multi-core hype". It's no hype. It's real. We've got idling screaming machines and "don't know what to do with them" as far as normal desktop use is concerned. Server people and internet companies know very well what to do with them. So do all the physicists and scientists that do massive data crunching. For the desktop, it's primarily games that will be pushing the envelope. From my personal experience I also believe Apple is heading in the right direction with all their new apps and APIs (Core Animation as a small example) exploiting more and more the underlying hardware architecture (not just Time Machine, but LLVM used in the OpenGL core and other parts).

Now I *really* feel very nostalgic about the good ol' SIMPLE days of single-core, single-CPU non-memory protected multitasking! ;-) Sigh.....
 

Offline persia

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2007, 02:19:19 PM »
15 bucks, considering that it would have cost them more than 50 to have it hauled away I would have held out for $25, afterall you are saving them the effort of carrying it out to the kerb as well.
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Offline Zac67

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Re: 486dx2 System Question
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2007, 05:37:08 PM »
@da9000

Very good description - and I, too miss the good ol' simple days... ;-)