What's the point of the MiniMig?

[Speelgoedmannetje]

leirbag28 wrote:

I would be extremely exstatic about a handheld Amiga. This is the beginnings of an Amiga PDA.

Maybe someone is crazy enough to put it in a dead Atari Lynx (with still working buttons, speakers and screen) :lol:

[AmiGR]

1) Good luck finding some of the MiniMig parts in as little as 6 months or so. Several parts on the 1.x board are already no longer made. (Admittedly you could redesign another which used different components)

You've completely missed the point. The MiniMig is Verilog, it's completely future proof. Xilinx may die tomorrow, the industry may suddenly decide that FPGAs in general suck and stop making them and the hardware description in HDL will still be there, you'll be able to use whatever technology exists at the time to implement it. Heck, no 68000 processors? No problem, IP Core.

[HenryCase]

amigadave wrote:
The Minimig is an important first step toward what will hopefully become the greatest chapter of Amiga history - Open Source Amiga Hardware AND (I hope eventually will lead to an) Open Source Amiga-compatible OS!

That's my dream for Amiga's future as well, and a perfect way to continue Amiga's legacy. Think about how many of the greatest achievements of the Amiga have come from the community surrounding it rather than the hardware owners (the ones controlling the purse strings, not the engineers). Considering all that the Amiga community has been through it seems fitting that the hardware should belong to us, and thanks to Dennis' great work we have brilliant opportunities ahead of us.

The price is high right now, but think of the possibilities if we make the time to develop the Minimig. Amiga laptop anyone (easily done with the current version)?

Also, given some extra development we could have a device like the C64DTV (big inspiration behind the Minimig). Okay, so it's not likely to cost less than £30 like the C64DTV due to economies of scale, but an important step towards this new device has already been made (TobiFlex incorporating the 68k core into a Minimig FPGA). Given enough development time I predict it would be possible to have a Minimig in a joystick within a few years that costs around £50-£70. If the memory card feature was kept it could be acceptable VFM, as the FPGA core could be made to emulate other hardware as well. Having said all that, I think Clone-A would be a better solution for this. Watch this vid (skip to 40min mark for current Clone-A plans):

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7945941150233337270

The dream Minimig (for many) would be one that could emulate all Amiga hardware and was linked to a fast CPU (used to run OS4, for example) but as others have said we need to walk before we can run.

freqmax wrote:
Then there's the possibility to do demos coded directly in HDL (like vhdl) and really exploit the fpga power. Or even use the fpga capability to interface with other electronics as logic analyzer etc..

This is an exciting possibility. I wished Commodore had followed through with its plans for incorporating DSPs into Amigas (like the A3000+), who knows what great uses developers would have found for them. FPGAs are one step up from DSPs as they are programmable, so the possibilities are even greater.

[XDelusion]

I did forget to emphasise how utterly awsome and tempting it is! I just can't afford that pleasure atm. But as I say, maybe a few advancements like more ADF's, yes that is good, and I did forget the free Scandoubler...

...definatly something that will get better in time, even if the CPU and RAM never expand, it is cool as heck, and better than emulation...


...but you know, if it was expandable now, I'd be finding ways to make money for one!

[dammy]

The Minimig is an important first step toward what will hopefully become the greatest chapter of Amiga history - Open Source Amiga Hardware AND (I hope eventually will lead to an) Open Source Amiga-compatible OS! Then we won't have to worry anymore about Amiga Inc., Hyperion, ACK, and all the rest that have let us down year after year after year.

Open Source Amiga-compatible OS?  Think we already have that.  It just needs more Developers.

Dammy

[Megaball]

In response to the original post with blatant disregard to any off topic conversations, the point of the minimig is to bring the Amiga back. I'm a musician so I'll use terms I know...

If tubes weren't popular, would obsolete technology still be used in amps today?

If the ElectroHarmonix Big Muff Pi distortion pedal didn't make the signature tone for bands like Cream, would it still be produced using modern technology as a surrogate for the warmest fuzz obtainable without tubes?

Back to computers - if Pac-Man were unpopular, would I be able to go to GameWorks and pump $15+ into it at least twice a month?

A big steaming NO.

It may be a niche market, but it's a market nonetheless, and soon there will be no more Amigas available for purchase.

What I'm trying to get at is this;

It's the Amiga.

Never give up, never surrender.

I close with a quote from a Metallica song;
"Show's through, metal's gone, it's time to hit the road.
Another town, another gig, again we will explode.
Hotel rooms and motorways, life out here is raw,
We'll never stop, we'll never quit, 'cause we're Metallica."

-Whiplash, Kill 'em all.

[Megaball]

sorry for dp

AJCopland wrote:
Not because we must, but because we can :-D

I believe we must.

I just turned 19 yesterday, but I was just 14 when I found the Amiga. First production model, the A1000's. This beast of a machine, ungainly and weathered with age, got me through some of the roughest patches of my life. I knew that when I found it, it was something different, something old but new, something... something with substance. Only now do I realize the sheer magnitude of like-minded human beings with the same passion and dedication to the Amiga as I have.

Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

I don't think it was my dad's plan to have me find it. I honestly think he forgot about it years ago, along with the Intellivision 2 and the Commodore VIC-20, both of which I still have.

If anything, the Amiga has given me a firm respect of old computing technology, and has made me a better person in the process. Kids today (weird hearing myself say that!) have it easy. Windoze, Mac, and all this other stuff, the dirty work has been done for them, and they have nothing to have fun with except pointing and clicking. The Amiga has taught me that times were difficult in the past and that technology has never had it so good now. Before I was born, there was a radio jingle going on in Australia for the newest line of Commodores, and I believe it went "Are you keeping up with the Commodore? 'Cause the Commodore is keeping up with you!".

I can proudly say that I am keeping up with my Commodore.

The Amiga, in my case, led me to meet new friends, have a bonding moment with my dad, turned me on to all sorts of interesting things (like the Public Domain), and, most importantly, turned other people on to the Amiga. The Minimig will be a turning point in computing evolution, where new meets old, form meets function, and people wake up. I guess you could say that the miggy has brought me to a higher sense of being and purpose, almost nirvana. It gave me such an overpowering sense of awareness that it brought me to tears on several occasions. The Minimig will be the corporate OS market's worst nightmare, and the Open Source community's dream come true. Open source hardware coupled with open source software, it's a magnificent concept. Linux  provided the pathway, and the "use, build upon, and give back to" mentality has lifted the Amiga to new heights.

It is true that Amiga went bankrupt and key developers have passed on, but the fact of the matter is that the Amiga is a fighting, fierce force in the computer universe that will not be silenced. I mean, come on! The last Amiga was produced around 1997, I think, and it's making a comeback.If I knew then what I know now I would have gladly killed for one of those. I'm still a kid, but good Lord, this machine has matured me to no end...

In short, Minimig = good for business.

[alexh]

AmiGR wrote:
You've completely missed the point. The MiniMig is Verilog, it's completely future proof.

And you've completely missed the point. You are correct, should you want a MiniMig board in the future you could design / build a new one with the components of the time.

The point was that for what it would cost you to do that you could fix any fault on an A500 motherboard and with the change buy a small villa in central europe

[Fixer]

downix wrote:
And if the MiniMig breaks, you can make another, and another, and another....

If you can solder. ;-)

Little OT: Though out of interest (and this is directed to those people who have actually built/used a Minimig) what does the Minimig actually 'feel' like when using it?

I ask because some people say the reason they prefer not to use emulation (WinUAE etc.) is because you just dont get the same feel as you do a real Amiga.

So that's what I want to know: does the Minimig feel like the real-deal A500, or does it just feel like another emulator?

[alexh]

I would imagine it feels more like a real Amiga (if you've never seen WinUAE at 50Hz full screen 720x576) than an emulator up to the point where a bug corrupts the demo screen.

I dont think bugs will last long if MiniMig boards go into production and prices come down because more technically minded users will help squash then.

[HenryCase]

dammy wrote:

The Minimig is an important first step toward what will hopefully become the greatest chapter of Amiga history - Open Source Amiga Hardware AND (I hope eventually will lead to an) Open Source Amiga-compatible OS! Then we won't have to worry anymore about Amiga Inc., Hyperion, ACK, and all the rest that have let us down year after year after year.

Open Source Amiga-compatible OS?  Think we already have that.  It just needs more Developers.

Dammy

I can't speak for amigadave Dammy, but I was certainly thinking of a Minimig + AROS future.

You raise a good point. The one factor that has held AROS back is lack of developers. It's currently looking impressive now, but just imagine what it would be like if it had strong support from the beginning.

If all these dreams for Minimig are going to come true, we have to realize that WE are the developers. I intend to start learning Verilog (there are loads of great resources for this on the Internet), so that I can make a contribution to Minimig one day. Who else is doing the same?

[AmiGR]

And you've completely missed the point. You are correct, should you want a MiniMig board in the future you could design / build a new one with the components of the time.

The point was that for what it would cost you to do that you could fix any fault on an A500 motherboard and with the change buy a small villa in central europe

What are you going on about? There's nothing on the MiniMig that is expensive. The reason they go for $200 is the fact that they're built in single units. You could use a larger FPGA and put most of the peripheral hardware onto that, have it on a BGA package on a tiny PCB and it would cost next to nothing.

[HenryCase]

AmiGR wrote:
What are you going on about? There's nothing on the MiniMig that is expensive. The reason they go for $200 is the fact that they're built in single units. You could use a larger FPGA and put most of the peripheral hardware onto that, have it on a BGA package on a tiny PCB and it would cost next to nothing.

As far as I can see the most expensive parts of the Minimig are the FPGA, 68k processor and RAM. Would it be possible to build the RAM into an FPGA?

[AmiGR]

The FPGA hardly expensive in terms of the total price of the MiniMig. The XC3S400-4PQG208C costs £13 in single unit quantities. The 68SEC000 is £7 and could be replaced with a larger FPGA and an IP core. Dunno about the RAM, the SRAM used is the easy option, I'm sure it could be re-implemented with some dirt-cheap DRAM.

Generally, there are many things that can be done to get the price down but many of them rely on larger quantities.

On another note, has anyone got an XC3S400-4PQG208C or plans to order some? If yes, please let me know, I'll be eternally grateful! :-)

[HenryCase]

AmiGR wrote:
The FPGA hardly expensive in terms of the total price of the MiniMig. The XC3S400-4PQG208C costs £13 in single unit quantities. The 68SEC000 is £7 and could be replaced with a larger FPGA and an IP core. Dunno about the RAM, the SRAM used is the easy option, I'm sure it could be re-implemented with some dirt-cheap DRAM.

Generally, there are many things that can be done to get the price down but many of them rely on larger quantities.

On another note, has anyone got an XC3S400-4PQG208C or plans to order some? If yes, please let me know, I'll be eternally grateful! :-)

The 68K processor has already implemented in a FPGA core alongside the Minimig code (see TobiFlex's work), so the biggest barrier to reducing price seems to be the RAM. Would using DRAM rather than SRAM really reduce prices by a significant amount?

If you are looking for a seller of the Xilinx XC3S400-4PQG208C within the UK, a quick websearch came up with this result:
http://www.ashlea.co.uk/157.html

At the time of writing this they have thousands in stock:
http://www.ashlea.co.uk/scripts/availability.pl?partID=XC3S400-4PQG208C

I've never used this particular supplier before so I couldn't vouch for their reliability. Why not send them an e-mail for a quote.

[AmiGR]

The 68K processor has already implemented in a FPGA core alongside the Minimig code (see TobiFlex's work), so the biggest barrier to reducing price seems to be the RAM. Would using DRAM rather than SRAM really reduce prices by a significant amount?

Wow, I'll take a look at TobiFlex's work, I was planning on putting a 68k core on the FPGA myself. About the RAM, well, SRAM is generally expensive. If we implement a DRAM controller on the FPGA and getting the timings right, 2MB of EDO DRAM is £2.50-3 in single quantities, at least £2 cheaper than SRAM.

If you are looking for a seller of the Xilinx XC3S400-4PQG208C within the UK, a quick websearch came up with this result:
http://www.ashlea.co.uk/157.html

At the time of writing this they have thousands in stock:
http://www.ashlea.co.uk/scripts/availability.pl?partID=XC3S400-4PQG208C

I've never used this particular supplier before so I couldn't vouch for their reliability. Why not send them an e-mail for a quote.

Oh, cool. It seems I'll have to go through University to use them, though, they do not appear to be selling to individuals.