The future of Windows (had a huge argument with my bro)

[Fixer]

I kind of need you alternative OS nuts to help me out a bit here.

First the story (longish, sorry):

Being that I don't do much with computers these days (except web, email, media and office stuff etc.) I actually don't have a very powerful x86 machine myself. So far Windows XP SP1 covers those tasks reasonably.

I started thinking of getting into a LAN game with my brothers. I have 3 younger brothers, and they all use Windows XP on fairly modern PCs. We all live together.

So I am thinking about buying a new 64bit Dual Core PC, so I can join in on their gaming.

I was discussing what hardware to get with one of them (he's a bit of a hardware focused guy) and I just happen to let it slip that if I'm getting a 64bit computer that it might be nice to try a 64bit version of Linux.. to really make the most of it (use XP SP2 just for games).

Well, when I mentioned using Linux he essentially went mad at me.

He doesn't see the point - he said "Why? Windows works! It's just there, and it does everything you need it to do, including games which Linux can't".

I started to explain that I think Windows is pretty bad internally, and crashes for silly reasons.

I also mentioned that I don't mind XP but Vista is awful with inconsistent GUI, poor backwards compatibility and a resource hog that takes away the point of using it as a modern OS. (Last time I tried Vista anyway.)

He then mentioned that the last time he tried Linux (an old version of SUSE, I think) he couldn't even do something simple that was done with a few clicks on Windows. I agreed that you have to use the terminal sometimes for simple things on Linux but I also explained distros like Ubuntu are really improving on that...

I also said the last time I tried Ubuntu I could do 85% of what I do on computers very easily (games not included in that stat).

And so the debate raged on.. Eventually he started getting tired of arguing, got drunk and then put South Park on.

Near the end of the argument our points got very speculative/assumptions.

I was saying if Vista didn't sort out its backwards compatibility problems.. that it eventually wouldn't be the main OS anymore, especially considering you can run Windows XP on Macs too.

He started saying that Linux has no money, doesn't advertise and essentially has no serious desktop userbase (he was drunk at this stage, the actual line was more like "none of ma fckn friends uses it, nobody uses it!")

.. I had to explain that Linux is at least used seriously in the Server Industry.

Another more valid point he made was that I, personally, would probably get sick of having two OSes on my system and would eventually back away from the dual-boot scenario to the more simple "use the OS that does everything for me and works scenario".

That has yet to be seen.

As for now this is where you guys come in...

-- Is 64bit Linux/Ubuntu a worthwhile alternative to use as a general use OS?

-- Does Linux make a good secondary OS? (any dual-boot issues, for instance?)

-- What is the future of Microsoft's Windows operating system?

- Will Vista be dominant, or crash and burn against competitors Linux/Mac?

- Will Windows XP do for another 5 years?

- Is Leopard gonna kick their buts out the desktop market? :crazy:

- How big is the desktop Linux userbase anyway? What gaps in the market has Linux filled?

- How commercial is Linux?

-- Is Amiga coming back to take them all out? Lol :lol:

Well these are just some of the questions that came up in our 'heated' argument. I know some of them can't be definitively answered, which is part of the reason I posted them on this forum with its ensemble lot of techies, geeks and generally awesome dudes! ;-)

Hopefully our collective knowledge/intelligence/resources will suffice.

Hope you can help. :-)

[InTheSand]

My 2c worth:

XP will do just fine until Microsoft stops releasing fixes for it - this is probably the OS to stick with for now if you've already bought and paid for it (though if you're stuck at SP1, I wonder!!!)

Vista - avoid unless you're buying a new PC with it preinstalled or really really need to play a game that requires DirectX 11.

64-bit Windows - carefully check your hardware and ensure there are (tested) drivers available.

Ubuntu makes a great secondary (or primary!) OS. For the usual basics of web browsing, email, office-type applications, graphics, etc, there are massive amounts of free software, all pre-packaged and just a couple of mouse clicks away.

There aren't usually any dual-boot issues, unless you install Ubuntu first and then Windows (where Windows will happily temporarily splatter any non-MS boot menu). Recent versions have full NTFS read/write support so you can get to your Windows files from Linux and will quite happily run quite a bit of Windows-based software via WINE.

Apple's Leopard will probably do well on the proprietary hardware that runs it, but will always be a niche market.

And as for AmigaOS 4... Cough.... Well, the three AmigaOne users and the four people with classic Amigas and PPC accelerators held together with sticky tape and string should run it and take over the world just fine!  :-D

I have a mixture of hardware and OSes, and use Amigas for nostalgia, WinXP for stuff that requires the use of commercial software, Ubuntu for a web/file server and to do usual day to day tasks like web browsing / emailing / creating documents, etc and XUbuntu for the same on an elderly laptop that would otherwise run Windows like a dog.

Just my opinion!

 - Ali

[AndrewBell]

Is 64bit Linux/Ubuntu a worthwhile alternative to use as a general use OS?

Definitely. If you are happy with a Unix type OS, Ubuntu is a great Linux distro. I've always preferred Debian based distro's over Red Hat type.

Does Linux make a good secondary OS? (any dual-boot issues, for instance?)

I never liked LILO or GRUB, I've often had problems trying to get Windows and Linux to co-exist, but there are other (sometimes commercial) alternatives. You might have more luck than I have.

What is the future of Microsoft's Windows operating system?

I think it's safe to say that Vista will be the top dog eventually, and it's shelf life may end up being extended like 98 and XP. After that, who knows.

Yes, XP has a few more years yet. Many people still use 98, and the signs are that XP could keep going for just as long.

Leopard will only replace Windows when Apple decide to let it run on any old PC hardware.

The size of the Linux userbase is hard to guage, certainly some large companies use it or are considering the change. The average home user such as my wife is clueless about it though and isn't likely to make the switch without being pushed.

Linux is very commercial, at least in certain areas. Gaming is one area that is lacking, but Cedega is starting to make up for that.

AmigaOS4 doesn't have a large enough base of hardware to start to dominate, that could be changed with a move to x86 though. Whether it will happen is another question, one which I couldn't answer.

The bottom line is: Linux is free compared to the ?100+ for Windows, it offers great choice but this can sometimes be confusing (eg Gnome or KDE, RPM or DEB etc). Check the Cedega web page, if they support the games you are likely to be playing, give Ubuntu a try, it costs nothing.
________
LOLOL

[benJamin]

Personally, when running older games, Linux with Wine is compatible with more games than Windows.  Most of the focus of Wine is making the new Windows games work on Linux (esp. WoW, etc.).

I have a quad-boot (Fedora, Windows, AROS and Amiga Forever(KX Light), and I almost NEVER boot directly into the other partitions.  If I really need to use Windows, I boot it in the VM.  If I want to test the latest version of AROS, I point the VM at its ISO.  I usually just run the latest version of eUAE configured to point to the AF directory when I want to use PPaint, etc.

So, the only times I EVER boot into Windows, for any reason, is to play the few games which need direct access to the graphics card and don't work with Wine (yet).  And that's almost never (I like 'Classic' games).

On the Windows as future OS front, I tried the beta of Windows Server 2008 recently (will play with a bit more soon) and find that it feels IDENTICAL to Windows Server 2003.  Sure, I know it is different, but it feels the same.

So, I think Windows is stagnating again.  Linux is great, and easy to make your primary OS.  But, if you need to use MS' products (Office?), install Windows as a VM.  Actually, having browser windows and stuff outside of Windows that I can force to stay on top and still work in Windows is one of the greatest time-savers I've ever come across (since my old Amiga's peripherals keep croaking...).

I think most people's issue with Linux these days is ignorant defiance.  It has always been the 'difficult' Unix-like OS that only geeks used, and that is how the predjudice will remain for some time to come.


jaminJay
"Rambling, as usual."

[Belial6]

If someone gets pissed at you for your OS choice, you can only assume that they are way to invested in their current choice.  This is even more true if they have a problem with you dual booting.

The one thing I would suggest if you decide to dual boot is to get a second hard drive.  Hard drives are cheap these days.  This way you can unplug your your Windows drive when you install Linux, and unplug your Linux drive when you install Windows.  This means you will have 0% chance of having any kind of GRUB/LILO boot problems caused by dual booting, even when and if you need to reinstall one of your OSes.

You can then use the BIOS boot selector to pick which drive you want to boot to.

[da9000]

Fixer dude, your whole conversation is speculation. I don't even see the complication in decision making:

If you've got the computer and you want or feel like installing/running Linux, AROS, or whatever other OS and you CAN, I say do it, just because you CAN.

No matter what bro, sister, priest, or whoever says. What harm could it cause? It's yet another opportunity to learn and expand your experience, knowledge, brain (scientists claim that our brain growth doesn't stop at early age - new neural connections continue to happen and be created).

Not trying it, well then, I can see a lot of harm: lost opportunity to learn and expand your knowledge and experience (even negative experiences are helpful: they tell you what not to try next time, or what to improve yourself in next time)

Ignorance is NOT bliss. It's poverty, mental as well as monetary.

Cheers mate, for being lucky enough to have options!

[Chubbyrain]

Leopard is lovely, but Microsoft is a LONG way from being doomed by anything Apple does for the foreseeable future. There is a slow trickle to the Mac platform  but that's all it's going to be.

I'd stay well away from Vista, which was essentially forced on a user base who didn't want it. Typical Microsoft really. We'll only make DX10 for Vista so in three years you HAVE to buy our product if you want to play games.

If you want a Windows platform, get XP. Be quick though since I hear MS will not be selling any more licenses for it early next year. Their stealth way of taking away your choice and forcing you into Vista.

Linux is a good system, but be prepared to fiddle with it.

As for the hardware, get a PC and you can run Linix AND XP. Use the latter for your games and the former for everything else.

Or if you want a Mac, you can run XP as well as Mac OSX and get the best of both worlds there as well. However, the graphics cards in Macs tend to be a litlle behind the curve when compared with gaming PCs.

And of course, you can always use an Amiga because there is nothing like that smell from old power supplies and circuit boards. You know the one. The 'is it going to catch fire?' kind of smell.

[koaftder]

Don't worry about what your brother or anybody else has to say about OS choice. People for the most part learn how to use one thing and pretty much stick with it. If somebody who uses windows all the time and doesn't have specific computing needs, linux will probably piss them off even if everything works. My girlfriend has used windows her whole life, and when she for some odd reason runs into a situation where she has to use one of my macs, it buggs her.

She gets caught up on stupid stuff like location of icons and keyboard short cuts. Oh well.

People for some odd reason seem to in general think that they have to "switch" to one thing or another.

It seems you want a new machine. Go ahead and get that shiny new, fast windows pc, and take Ubuntu for a spin on the older one. I have windows machines, linux machines, macs, and some amigas. I don't need to switch, I use them all where ever it is appropriate. Your average computer user who just reads email, surfs the web and plays video games will never understand this concept, and debating one OS or hardware platform over another is just a waste of time.

[Roj]

I really only use PCs for gaming, and I'd be just as happy if I never saw more of Windows than the Steam client, assuming a larger selection of games was available through its interface. As far as I'm concerned, Windows is just the freight train that games have to drag along behind them.

Just about every other modern operating system allows games to crank the detail levels. Vista especially limits the ability to move the sliders to the right. I've read many, many posts in support forums for several games that verify this.

Regardless of the operating system I use, I strongly doubt that Microsoft will produce anything that will satisfy my craving for "getting my hands dirty". Windows is just too easy to hose without a ridiculous amount of study.

[seer]

You can always set up a dual boot and try both out, or use one OS (Ubuntu) for al daily tasks and Windows for games that don't run under Ubuntu.

One pro for 64bit linux versus 64bit windows, most tasks/programs are 64bit whilst most programs in 64bit windows are 32bit running "emulated" tho you may never ever notice that.

As for XP vs Vista.
Wel forget XP 64 bit. The least supported OS next after ME.If you want to be sure "everything" runs get XP. That does mean however that you can't use more then 3.2 - 3.8 GB ram depending on the hardware and it is less secure.

If you want to run a 64bit Windows go for Vista. I've been running it since its release, almost everything runs on it except a few very old games. Most mainstream hardware has support for it. (And no, UAC isn't bothering me at all, I don't have the habit of installing new programs every second..)

And offcourse thins work differently in a Linux OS. The same way things work differently compared to AmigaOS or AtariTOS.. What's the point of having more OSes out there if they are all the same..

[thanos]

I will be upgrading my PC once more so that I can play more current video games.  BF2, 2142, and a few others.

DX 10 support will not be available for XP, only Vista.  Thats a deal breaker for me.

I think/hope it will be my last Windows PC.

Nothing wrong with MS products, I'm just tired of seeing that little flag.

I believe that the average user can meet all the computer needs they might have with Ubuntu, and certainly Mac OS.

I wish I could afford a Mac, but Ubuntu seems just to me.

There is no future for Windows at my home...

[stopthegop]

So, I think Windows is stagnating again.

Its always felt stagnant to me.  I tried Vista on a quad core last week and it felt like jogging with a fire hydrant.  

 Nag, nag, nag...  

"Are you sure you want to do this?"  yes
"Are you really, really sure you want to do this?" YES
"Are you really, really, really sure you don't want to do |this| instead?"  YES, GODDA**IT!

[kd7ota]

Finally, a good topic to put in my two cents..  :-)

Honestly, I am VERY impressed with Ubuntu linux. Just about a week or so ago 7.10 came out, and when I tried the live boot, wireless worked!  Everything I threw at it, it did VERY swiftly.  This was on a PC with a 2.4ghz P4.  Heck, even if you have 256mb on linux, it takes you a good distance.

I was thinking the same thing as far as what the primary OS will be.  Mac OS X is becoming more favorable and I notice alot of people having a mac laptop in my college.  Vista im not too impressed with.  Not because it just came out and lack of things, but the fact that it is "usable" in a system with a dual core 3800+ and 2gb of ram!  :-?

My prediction is that Microsoft OS will start to decline, and either Mac OS or Linux will eventually take. Maybe not 10 years from now, but later.  :-D  :-)

You should look at Cedega for linux if you want to play PC games.  Its not freeware, but it does one heck of a job for playing games. It even does world of warcraft!  :lol:

Either way, if you do web surfing, messaging, and a few games, then Ubuntu would be a great choice.


btw, show your friend Ubuntu lol, he will crap when he sees it booting off a CD and how much you can do.  :-)

[Karlos]

You guys actually had a row over that?

Just try a few live CD distros, see if it's for you. If so, you can always have a dual boot.

[stopthegop]

@Karlos:

They were drinking.