MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all

[Crumb]

@freqmax

There's documentation about AGA in various places:

http://www.mways.co.uk/amiga/howtocode/text/aga.php

http://aminet.net/package/docs/help/aga_guide

http://aminet.net/package/docs/misc/agamanual

Also E-UAE/WinUAE include a lot of code to support AGA.


As there's people interested on the MiniMig due to the retro factor and may not be so interested in a super PPC amiga, I would advise starting with things you would need also on 680x0 systems:
-More ram. 32MB at least, although I don't think 32MB is enough for OS4. I would try to include 128MB. It doesn't matter if it's not used ATM with a 68000. Anything bigger than a 68000 will be able to take advantage of it.
-Gayle IDE interface (it's well documented on WinUAE)
-68020 (at least). You are going to emulate a Blizzard/Cyberstorm PPC and OS4 official CD requires OS3.x to load the bootmodules. 68LC060/75 are usually cheap, but may be more complex to interface.
-a 5v A500 compatible cpu slot. Or even better, A1200 compatible.
-AGA. Not strictly needed, but very nice.
-CirrusLogic/Virge emulation. I think some emulators like QEmu/Bochs emulate a CirrusLogic. It would have to be compatible enough to be able to use Picasso96 drivers with it. That would require at least a 020 to work as P96 requires 020 at least.

[pixie]

MiniMig + PowerPC = [Sam | Efika 2]

:-?

[freqmax]

Don't think a 5V slot is really needed. New hw will likely either by HDL code or 3,3V components. 5V will be a real pain.
People could build a software emulation that is split into modules just like chips on a bus in the real thing. That can later be translated into HDL to help with misc reverse engineering (like Gayle interface).

[Crumb]

@freqmax:

The problem is that AFAIK there are no 3.3v versions of other 680x0 chips that aren't 68000, 68040 -there's a special version of 040- and 68060. So unless you include a more advanced cpu, a 5v slot interface would be definitely interesting for the first tests. You could connect a BlizzardPPC and check out if OS4/MOS work with MiniMig, later you could integrate a 020 or 060 +PPC for the minimig.

BTW, AFAIK Dennis splited the code of each chip in different files. I guess that Gayle IDE interface shouldn't be too hard to implement. First versions could use the MMC card with a hardfile and later ones for more advanced MiniMigs could have a real IDE interface

[SamuraiCrow]

pixie wrote:
MiniMig + PowerPC = [Sam | Efika 2]

:-?

Sam 440ep, yes.  It has an FPGA built in.

Efika 2, probably not as you'd need an external board to add AGA or 32-bit ECS (A3000-style).

[pixie]

I heard somewhere i down the road that EFIKA 2 was also getting an FPGA, at least one its versions

[pixie]

SamuraiCrow wrote:

downix wrote:
http://www.genesippc.com  Ekifa2 meets your needs.

Genesi rejected the idea of sending Jens Shoenfeld an Efika so he could produce his CloneA ECS-compatible graphics chips on a PCI card.  Why would they do any differently for the MiniMig?

I think the integrated FPGA on the SAM 440ep would do the job for backward compatibility using CloneA or MiniMig as the gate layout.

If EFIKA 2 goes as planned at that stage it would already have one FPGA CPU, it wouldn't need another on PCI... But there's nothing stopping Jen from making money on EFIKA hardware,,,

[MarkTime]

Downix, Kronos, Piru...I'm just amazed at how you post in these threads, and really...are amazingly patient with those who know less than you, and...you talk to them without really damaging their feelings overmuch.

I couldn't do it, I'd flame them in a half second.

But anyway...to the original point, of developing something that could emulate a sufficient environment to run the boxed OS 4 for classic Amigas.

I think there is little point.  I understand the desire...but OS 4 will only seem important until you have it in your hands, and then your realize it didn't move the platform much.

Then you start itching for OS 5, or a modern browser, or flash, or java, or .mono or .net, or a decent game even.

OS 4 just isn't the answer.  Neither is Coldfire.  I don't care if it runs the equivalent of a 500mhz 68060...that is still dog slow.

OS 4 is still out of date, and behind the times, and nearly useless.

talk about being a party pooper...but thats not what this post is about.  

I can handle AGA in emulation in UAE....all we need for a new amiga is the best of the old Amiga IP and ideas, wrapped in a completely modern motherboard and OS.

I would buy one, if someone could sell them and keep them in stock.  Everytime I check back with genesi, they either aren't really stocking the product, or MorphOS is coming any day now.

The last time I had a pegasos...well other than it didn't seem to work, I couldn't get a CD to go with it.


Modern system.   OS with dev. tools.  Available to buy...all parts included.

Oh, now look who's being the dreamer....sorry for the rant.

[RedskullDC]

Crumb wrote:

The problem is that AFAIK there are no 3.3v versions of other 680x0 chips that aren't 68000, 68040 -there's a special version of 040- and 68060. So unless you include a more advanced cpu, a 5v slot interface would be definitely interesting for the first tests. You could connect a BlizzardPPC and check out if OS4/MOS work with MiniMig, later you could integrate a 020 or 060 +PPC for the minimig.

Has anyone here tried running some of the other 68k chips at 3.3v ?

Anyone with a Blizzard 040 game to try it with the CPU voltage set to 3.3v (060 postion), and see if it works reliably?
I don't have such a board, else I'd try it myself.

If so, 68040's can be bought very cheaply at:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Motorola-32-bit-Microprocessor-P-N-XC68LC040FE33B_W0QQitemZ160114591305
to experiment with.

Digi-key lists some of the HC series 68K chips as being 3.3V tolerant, though this is at odds with the Motorola docs.

Red

[HenryCase]

Crumb wrote:
@HenryCase

You are mixing specs of different accelerators:
-one accelerator is the Blizzard2060, it's a 680x0 accelerator with *no* ppc
-a developer edition powerUp PPC board exists that you can plug into a 040/060 socket of CyberstormMK2 or Blizzard2060. It includes a 680x0 cpu and a slow 603e

Now once that's clear, remember that:
-OS4 is PPC *only*. It won't run on 680x0
-A developer edition powerUp PPC board may or may not work with OS4, but that's not confirmed.
-OS4 lacks drivers for the Blizzard2060 onboard SCSI, so it won't be able to boot from it. It may work with catweasel or any other *PIO driven* IDE/SCSI card.

Crumb, thank you for your very helpful reply to my question (on a random note, your current post count stands at 777, how cool is that!).

So as far as I can see it, the Blizzard2060 accelerator isn't guaranteed to work with OS4 but at the same time, there's a possibility (with the developer board plugin). Once OS4 Classic is released we'll have a clearer view on this.

From a purely hypothethical standpoint, if the hardware and drivers of the Blizzard2060 (in their current state) were to be released under an open source licence, so that the Amiga community could develop the technology for their own needs, would that provide a good starting point for a PowerPC MiniMig? This open source approach would speed up development of SCSI drivers as well as sorting out the seemingly unfinished nature of the PPC support.

One thing that worries me, you say that the developer PowerUp PPC board includes a slow 603e chip? How slow are we talking here? I mean it's all well and good if we get a Minimig capable of running OS4 but I'd be looking for a responsive OS, not just an impressive technical achievement. If the PowerUp PPC plugin was also made open source is there anything in the architecture that would stop a more powerful chip being used? I'm thinking pin compatibility, etc...

[HenryCase]

MarkTime wrote:
OS 4 is still out of date, and behind the times, and nearly useless.

I agree that it isn't the most modern OS out there, but it's the newest stable platform we have (excluding AROS which is impressive but still WIP).

MarkTime wrote:
Modern system.   OS with dev. tools.  Available to buy...all parts included.

Oh, now look who's being the dreamer....sorry for the rant.

This topic is about making the best community led h/w. When I saw the specs for the top of the range ACK machine I was very impressed but the fact of the matter is that h/w is not with us. Neither is any other h/w that really gets me excited on the high tech side of things (of course you may see this differently: Efika, SAM, etc...).

The Minimig is one of the best things to happen to the Amiga community in recent years simply because it offers an opportunity for the community to take control of their platform whilst events outside of our control conspire against us.

Anyway, it's good to be a dreamer, no harm done by your rant. :-D

[downix]

MarkTime wrote:
Downix, Kronos, Piru...I'm just amazed at how you post in these threads, and really...are amazingly patient with those who know less than you, and...you talk to them without really damaging their feelings overmuch.

I couldn't do it, I'd flame them in a half second.

I used to be that way.  Then I took 3 years off

But anyway...to the original point, of developing something that could emulate a sufficient environment to run the boxed OS 4 for classic Amigas.

I think there is little point.  I understand the desire...but OS 4 will only seem important until you have it in your hands, and then your realize it didn't move the platform much.

Then you start itching for OS 5, or a modern browser, or flash, or java, or .mono or .net, or a decent game even.

OS 4 just isn't the answer.  Neither is Coldfire.  I don't care if it runs the equivalent of a 500mhz 68060...that is still dog slow.

OS 4 is still out of date, and behind the times, and nearly useless.

talk about being a party pooper...but thats not what this post is about.  

I can handle AGA in emulation in UAE....all we need for a new amiga is the best of the old Amiga IP and ideas, wrapped in a completely modern motherboard and OS.

I would buy one, if someone could sell them and keep them in stock.  Everytime I check back with genesi, they either aren't really stocking the product, or MorphOS is coming any day now.

The last time I had a pegasos...well other than it didn't seem to work, I couldn't get a CD to go with it.

Modern system.   OS with dev. tools.  Available to buy...all parts included.

Oh, now look who's being the dreamer....sorry for the rant.

Technically OS4 can offer this, but it, like MorphOS, are tied to what I view in the long term as a dead end.  The excitement of the MiniMig is that it eliminates the corporate control, but PowerPC itself gives you the same thing.  Once someone recreates the 68000 in verilog (which I heard a few people state that they were trying), it comes down to just minor peripheral components, which can be substituted without penalty.  

I don't see a future for our platform until we stop trying to do something just because Apple does it, which remains the only reason we went to PowerPC in the first place.  

In 1997, I was a heavy promoter of us going to MIPS, due to cost and the fact that we could license the chip architecture, and roll our own CPU's should a vendor try and cut us off at the knees.  Nowadays, the market has changed, and for such a migration, SPARC, ARM or SuperH would be my recommendation (in that order) for the same reasons.  I never could get licensing terms from MIPS, which saddens me.  However, I have the source to SPARC already, and even modified it for my own purposes.

I say, run the classic AmigaOS in a sandbox, much like OS X runs the classic MacOS, and build a new platform.  But, the time to market scares away everyone, and nobody seems willing to take the risk.

[freqmax]

@downix:
The reason for Minimig is that the hardware is dying physicaly. And there is no new ones made.
Software emulation won't give cycle accurency that demos & games need.

As for CPUs, ARM is trigger happy litigator. I would be careful about being dependent on them.

[downix]

freqmax wrote:
@downix:
The reason for Minimig is that the hardware is dying physicaly. And there is no new ones made.
Software emulation won't give cycle accurency that demos & games need.

As for CPUs, ARM is trigger happy litigator. I would be careful about being dependent on them.

Agreed, hence why SPARC is my preferred choise.

[little]

@MarkTime

I would agree with you if Ainc or any big computer manufacturer would come up with this projects. But if you look closely these come from little (dare I say tiny?)  companies or from the community. You have to start with something and with minimig and AROS you do not have to worry about stupid CEOs driving the platform towards a cliff. So you can dream for an ideal comeback or you can be part of these projects the community is building. If you think they amount to nothing, go tell that to linus torvalds if you dare :-P

[Hans_]

downix wrote:
I say, run the classic AmigaOS in a sandbox, much like OS X runs the classic MacOS, and build a new platform.  But, the time to market scares away everyone, and nobody seems willing to take the risk.

That's exactly what Hyperion want to do (or should I say, the OS 4 dev team). Even if they use a similar API, based on the same principles, they have to break compatibility in order to implement things like memory protection and multiprocessing.

Hans