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Author Topic: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all  (Read 30185 times)

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Offline AndrewBell

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #74 on: October 27, 2007, 11:21:08 PM »
Quote
What isn't posible (you somewhat lost me here)....


Your point about (E)UAE on an Amiga making use of the Amiga chipset to aid emulation. That's what isn't possible.

I mentioned MoL and VPC to illustrate how other emulators/VMs are equally restricted.

Quote
Oh, and would you please name one piece of SW that demands both PPC AND AGA ?


Why? I never said there was any software like that, did I? My point was that you were wrong when you stated that "an PPC-Amiga with just AGA is a pain in the a...". Some people still run Workbench on AGA, so they would benefit from the increased speed of PPC.
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Offline Kronos

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #75 on: October 27, 2007, 11:21:13 PM »
Propraly the same that require PPC and AGA ??  :crazy:
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline AndrewBell

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #76 on: October 27, 2007, 11:22:47 PM »
Quote

Kronos wrote:
Propraly the same that require PPC and AGA ??  :crazy:


Read back a bit. This notion about software that needs PPC and AGA came from your mind, not mine.
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Offline itix

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2007, 01:14:57 AM »
Quote

Some people still run Workbench on AGA, so they would benefit from the increased speed of PPC.


Bottleneck on those machines is not CPU but AGA. You get awesome boost if you dont use slow AGA at all but render gfx on the PPC instead.

That is, AGA is equally slow on 68020 and PPC but gfx on BVision runs faster on PPC than on any 68k.
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Offline downix

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #78 on: October 28, 2007, 01:46:57 AM »
Quote

AndrewBell wrote:
Quote

Kronos wrote:
Propraly the same that require PPC and AGA ??  :crazy:


Read back a bit. This notion about software that needs PPC and AGA came from your mind, not mine.

Without that notion then this thread is pointless, as it is discussing a PPC w/ AGA or ECS based MiniMig, and without that AGA or ECS, you just have a Pegasos, EKiFA, AOne, Sam440, or something similar.
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Offline AndrewBell

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #79 on: October 28, 2007, 03:21:44 AM »
Quote

downix wrote:
Quote

AndrewBell wrote:
Quote

Kronos wrote:
Propraly the same that require PPC and AGA ??  :crazy:


Read back a bit. This notion about software that needs PPC and AGA came from your mind, not mine.

Without that notion then this thread is pointless, as it is discussing a PPC w/ AGA or ECS based MiniMig, and without that AGA or ECS, you just have a Pegasos, EKiFA, AOne, Sam440, or something similar.


Do you even know what the post that you quoted is about? Even if you've read it fully, it's clear that you haven't understood it.
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Offline Kronos

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #80 on: October 28, 2007, 07:57:20 AM »
Doh, and there I was thinking I made my point clear enough....

A combination of a PPC with an Amiga-chipset(OCS,ECS,AGA even if it was AAA) but without a semi-modern GFX-card is pointless, as there is absolutly no SW that would demand such an setup.
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline AndrewBell

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #81 on: October 28, 2007, 08:41:29 AM »
Quote
Doh, and there I was thinking I made my point clear enough....


Yes, Doh indeed. You didn't make it clear, far from it.

Quote
A combination of a PPC with an Amiga-chipset(OCS,ECS,AGA even if it was AAA) but without a semi-modern GFX-card is pointless, as there is absolutly no SW that would demand such an setup.


Even if it isn't demanded, you can run OS4 on AGA. Besides that, look at the bigger picture. Clone-A and Minimig, if available on PCI cards, offer Amiga graphics facilities to modern, fast CPUs. They still have features that are not present on modern 3D accelerated gfx cards, such as sprites, collision detection, playfields, hardware scrolling etc. Jens has even talked about extending the capabilities of the chipset.

Forget software that exists. OS4 is about the future. I'd like to see a return to some older game styles: vertical and horizontal scrollers, platforms games that don't use 3D because they have to.
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Offline Jethro_TullTopic starter

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #82 on: October 28, 2007, 06:21:02 PM »
Thanks to everyone for your posts, this thread has certainly swelled rapidly!  To make myself clear, let me reiterate that the main aim of adding Blizzard PPC support for the Minimig is to run Classic OS4 unmodified.  Just to allow everyone to run OS4 easily, without resorting to scavenging for old and expensive hardware.  

It's easy to get carried away and conjure plans of complete new PPC boards, but the current situation is that even though such boards already exist, OS4 does not run on them.  And personally, what I'd like is to get cheap, readily available hardware in Amiga users' hands capable of running the existing OS4.

Without wanting to sound like a troll, I firmly believe if Dennis had asked the Amiga community's opinion and views before starting out on the MiniMig, he would've been either discouraged or disenchanted by the pervasive negative atmosphere of this community, and he wouldn't have even started on his project!  Without pointing any fingers (hey, I called him a fraud myself!) everyone's finding fault with each others' ideas, and it's simply depressing.  Fortunatly, Dennis started posting when the MiniMig was virtually ready, and gave this veritable ace in preserving the Amiga in our hands.  Now, are we going to build positively on this or just trample over it with our over sized egos and remain empty handed as usual, at the mercy of any organization who'd fancy taking us Amiga users for a ride?

As AndrewBell pointed out, another solution might be virtualisation on an existing PPC platform, namely the Apple Mac.  Software development is certainly less time consuming and a more widespread skill then hardware development.  So Andrew's idea is certainly more viable in the short term.  On the other hand, adding Blizzard PPC emulation to the MiniMig would provide an affordable open platform for the current OS4, and also provide Classic Amiga support to run games and other hardware hitting software.  In other words, a new Amiga which is truly compatible with old software, and truly carries on the Amiga name, not an anonymous PPC board which has to run UAE just like an ordinary PC to be Amiga compatible!  

While I wouldn't dare minimizing the task, maybe simply reverse engineering the Blizzard libraries and probing the A1200 expansion bus would yield enough clues for the emulation.  After all, how did Hyperion and the MorphOS team port their respective operating system to run on these boards without intimate knowledge of their workings.  Indeed, Hyperion could (maybe unofficially) land a helping hand in the development of the PPC Minimig, since it would obviously be in their interest!

Some community members over here (Crom00) beleive that the existing MiniMig can be mass produced at low cost, and are actively working on the idea.  So how much a minimal PPC processor, additional RAM and maybe an additional FPGA would add to the total cost? Certainly not enough to make it more expensive then the SAM440 or the now defunct A1, and cheaper to what Blizzard PPC cards are being sold for!  

Look at this thread, I've proposed an idea, which although it might be impossible to realize, is still an idea in my opinion worth discussing.  I've asked for technically minded members to reply with how this could be done in practice, and what has this thread turned into?  Pointless bickering over who said what, who misunderstood what and who misquoted who.  For Pete's sake, grow up and move on! If this is really what the current Amiga community has to offer, well, draw your own conclusions folks.  

Maybe even if we get our hands dirty, and try to build the PPC MiniMig, it won't work out, and maybe a technical, legal or commercial hurdle will prove insurmountable at the end.  But when the years go by, and Amiga Inc, ACK or someone else comes round peddling their latest vapor ware and empty promises to this battered, betrayed community yet again, we might hold our heads high and claim we at least tried to develop real, independent hardware to keep the Amiga alive, rather then swallow each and every lie and hope foolishly ad infinitum

Thanks to anyone reading through this long rant!

Cheerio; Jethro Tull
 

Offline Paradox

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2007, 07:00:32 PM »
Exactly mate.

Theres no point in making clone of old 68k Amigas unless you use it for os3.x or retro gaming like the minimig.

We need to move on with PPC and make nice little cheep boards that we can sell once year and upgrade.

No that OS4 for classic soon released we can concerntrate on this as our main objective.

Maybe yes if there was an old 68k amiga clone compatable with 1200 PPC card then what would be the point when there not being mde anymore?

I think we would need more PPC cards than 1200 motherboards etc.

This is why we need no 68k and just a small PPC mobo to use, if you have got 1200/3000/4000 with PPC then great also.

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Offline AeroMan

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2007, 09:23:27 PM »
Wow,

    I must say that Jethro Tull's "book"  ;-) below is just amazing. I agree with him in every point.
    There is another thing also that I think is important. We are talking about AGA compatibility using FPGAs. Those are reconfigurable chips. This means we can have AGA if we download the right stuff on then, but if we need something faster, we can write a better graphics display and download it. With FPGAs we are not stuck with physical AGA all the time, you can change it on the fly.
    Using a MPC5200 (I just loved this chip..  :-D ) we also get AC97 audio, which means we could use the audio part the FPGA to be part of graphics stuff when reconfigured. I'm pretty sure it would be no match for a top of the line PC Graphics board, but if you really want one of these, all you need is PCI or AGP.
    A nice FPGA, a MPC5200, RAM, a codec, and some glue logic would make a very small board at a nice price. It could even be portable if we connect it to a LCD.
 

Offline HenryCase

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #85 on: October 28, 2007, 09:43:18 PM »
Quote
Minimig is an OCS machine, like the A500,right? An A2000 is almost the very same machine as an A500.

But there is a 2060 accelerator for it, and better than that: exists a "PPC evaluation board" for it.

So here come the idea: create a minimig with both 68k AND PPC CPUs! Exactly like those from A2000.


This is the best solution as far as I can see. The changes needed to the Minimig side would be smaller than trying to emulate A1200 hardware. Probably need a more powerful FPGA so that you could add the correct upgrade interface for the card (ZorroII?) as well as a more modern interface type for further upgrades.

However, there are a few problems with taking the A2000 route...
1. Finding the original expansion hardware to reverse engineer.
2. Preparing yourself to pay extortionate amounts to whomever owns the hardware.
3. Putting in the hard graft and copying the device (using FPGAs or otherwise).
4. Once hardware emulation complete, fixing the bugs in the original device (check out this site: http://s.guillard.free.fr/GForce/GVP-m.htm).

Having said all that I think it's the best chance that the Amiga community has for taking control of the hardware situation for OS4. Check out these links to see what cool stuff this upgrade could bring:

http://8bit.dk/pepe/a2000ppc.html
http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=362602&postcount=6

:-D
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Offline freqmax

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #86 on: October 29, 2007, 01:38:19 AM »
I think this all point in one direction documentation..
So anyone sitting on information on AGA or PPC or for that part any amiga hardware docs. Upload it, so that projects like minimig etc.. may take of.
Whichever direction this takes it sure will need documentation. So might aswell start now to collect information while doing the planning for future boards.

As for PPC accelerator reverse engineering. I think that it might be possible from existing software, CPU docs and pcb board layout. Figure out at least a working re-implementation.
 

Offline HenryCase

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #87 on: October 29, 2007, 05:02:26 AM »
Quote

freqmax wrote:
I think this all point in one direction documentation..
So anyone sitting on information on AGA or PPC or for that part any amiga hardware docs. Upload it, so that projects like minimig etc.. may take of.


That is a great idea freqmax. I am currently in the process of searching the internet for as much information on the A2060 (my preferred solution) as I can, and I'll upload whatever I get here.

I do have a question for the hardware heads out there. There seem to be two accelerator boards for A2000 with the same name (GVP-m A2060 and Phase5 A2060). The GVP one seems to be an 68k expansion while the Phase5 board is a PPC one. My question is this: Would a Minimig running with an 060 accelerator be fast enough for OS4?

In any case, here is the first bit of documentation I've found, for the TekMagic A2000-060/040 accelerators (same model as the GVP A2060 AFAIK):
http://www.gregdonner.org/gvp4060/TekMagic040-060.pdf
It is a user manual, but has some useful technical information too.
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Offline Crumb

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #88 on: October 29, 2007, 08:47:26 AM »
@HenryCase

You are mixing specs of different accelerators:
-one accelerator is the Blizzard2060, it's a 680x0 accelerator with *no* ppc
-a developer edition powerUp PPC board exists that you can plug into a 040/060 socket of CyberstormMK2 or Blizzard2060. It includes a 680x0 cpu and a slow 603e

Now once that's clear, remember that:
-OS4 is PPC *only*. It won't run on 680x0
-A developer edition powerUp PPC board may or may not work with OS4, but that's not confirmed.
-OS4 lacks drivers for the Blizzard2060 onboard SCSI, so it won't be able to boot from it. It may work with catweasel or any other *PIO driven* IDE/SCSI card.
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Offline Crumb

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Re: MiniMig + PowerPC = OS4 Hardware for all
« Reply #89 from previous page: October 29, 2007, 09:03:40 AM »
@freqmax

There's documentation about AGA in various places:

http://www.mways.co.uk/amiga/howtocode/text/aga.php

http://aminet.net/package/docs/help/aga_guide

http://aminet.net/package/docs/misc/agamanual

Also E-UAE/WinUAE include a lot of code to support AGA.


As there's people interested on the MiniMig due to the retro factor and may not be so interested in a super PPC amiga, I would advise starting with things you would need also on 680x0 systems:
-More ram. 32MB at least, although I don't think 32MB is enough for OS4. I would try to include 128MB. It doesn't matter if it's not used ATM with a 68000. Anything bigger than a 68000 will be able to take advantage of it.
-Gayle IDE interface (it's well documented on WinUAE)
-68020 (at least). You are going to emulate a Blizzard/Cyberstorm PPC and OS4 official CD requires OS3.x to load the bootmodules. 68LC060/75 are usually cheap, but may be more complex to interface.
-a 5v A500 compatible cpu slot. Or even better, A1200 compatible.
-AGA. Not strictly needed, but very nice.
-CirrusLogic/Virge emulation. I think some emulators like QEmu/Bochs emulate a CirrusLogic. It would have to be compatible enough to be able to use Picasso96 drivers with it. That would require at least a 020 to work as P96 requires 020 at least.
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