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Author Topic: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?  (Read 5934 times)

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Offline nicholasTopic starter

Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« on: September 25, 2007, 06:42:43 PM »
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Offline cecilia

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2007, 07:43:05 PM »
"Those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it"....??

many americans are simply so uneducated you can get them to agree to anything, however dumb.
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Offline Wilse

Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2007, 07:55:40 PM »
dear, oh dear....

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2007, 08:47:58 PM »
I don't think my grandparents would believe this.
I have no words for this.
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline KThunder

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2007, 09:34:02 PM »
well cecelia would probably consider me to be "uneducated" as if educated people have no biases. but i think this is sick and wrong.
i have talked to numerous people about political views including Christians, Athiests, Agnostics, and several Muslim friends and noone i have talked to has views even close to these. i have seen nothing but respect in the media except for a few mosques and people suspected of terrorist activities and or funding.
im betting there was a bit of slant in the reporting here we see a few wakos spouting stupidity and noone said the question was stupid? i have seen polls from legitimate noncommercial agancies stating exactly the opposite.

from an american (with muslim friends) this is not a preavolent attitude in my area in the country at the least and i think the report was deliberately slanted for suspicious reasons.
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Offline motorollin

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2007, 09:39:57 PM »
Thank you KThunder for restoring some balance :-) But still scary views from those people shown.

The answer is simple. If you want to identify attackers without being discriminatory, then force everybody, Muslim or not, to carry ID.

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moto
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Offline KThunder

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2007, 09:51:54 PM »
having everyone carry id cards might not be discriminatory but they would probably be used that way. there is no good way around it. if you have to show me your card for any reason i could use that against you
everyone should be free to practice whatever religion without fear of discrimination, and i think any way you go about it there would be or could be fear.
 
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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2007, 10:40:48 PM »
Quote

motorollin wrote:
Thank you KThunder for restoring some balance :-) But still scary views from those people shown.

The answer is simple. If you want to identify attackers without being discriminatory, then force everybody, Muslim or not, to carry ID.

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I don't want to carry an ID. Sue me.
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline motorollin

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2007, 11:17:18 PM »
The authorities already have the right to demand that you identify yourself. Having a standardised identity card won't change this.

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
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80  GOTO 10
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2007, 11:53:29 PM »
Quote

motorollin wrote:
The authorities already have the right to demand that you identify yourself. Having a standardised identity card won't change this.

--
moto
I know the ausweis is forced upon me. But I don't give a sh*t. I do not support stasi methods. I don't give a rat's a*se about people feeling 'unsafe'.
That whole particular law is unconstitutional.
I am guilty because of what I don't have in my pocket. How's that for human rights, eh?
Must I pay 2250 Euro because of some wussies think safety is sacred?
And oh we are so safe right now. I could get outside atm and stab lots of people randomly, nothing to stop me. Unsafe as hell, I'd say.
Yet it rarely happen.


Sorry for the rant, but this issue makes me really angry.
I really value our freedom, our basic western (currently western) values.
I even had a vicious dispute with my parents about this issue. (not anymore, thankfully)
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Offline KThunder

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2007, 11:58:47 PM »
Quote

motorollin wrote:
The authorities already have the right to demand that you identify yourself. Having a standardised identity card won't change this.

--
moto


the authorities dont have the ability to force you to identify your religious affiliation if any.
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Offline cecilia

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2007, 01:46:59 AM »
when i was in High School I once sat next to a person in the subway that had a small tattoo on his/her forearm. (it was so long ago i don;t remember anything else about this person).

The numbers were small and slightly faded but they were UNmistakable.

only the Nazi's made tattoos like that.

I felt honored to sit next to such a person. They had survived a real horror.

I don't want to see people be forced to wear pink sysmbols on their clothings.

I don't want to see people with stars on their lapels either.

Or tattoos put on by a government.

This solves nothing and makes things worse. We've seen it before and we don;t need to repeat this nonsense.
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Offline motorollin

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2007, 09:13:56 AM »
@Speel
I would be very interested to hear what rights you feel you are surrendering by holding a state-issued ID card. The right to commit crime?

@KThunder
I agree. That's why I said all citizens should carry ID, not just those who are identified as belonging to a particular race/religion.

@Cecilia
See my response to KThunder :-)


Don't get me wrong, I hate the state interfering in my personal life as much as the next person. But I really disagree with the argument that we are giving up rights by being required to carry ID. Unfortunately in the modern world where violent attacks are commonplace, I think it is only sensible for the authorities to be able to identify people who could potentially do me harm.

Of course there is the issue of privacy, and of what the government are actually planning to do with any information they gather. Knowledge really is power, and an unscrupulous government with lots of knowledge about you could wield power over you in scary ways. I suppose the question is this. Which do you fear more? A powerful government using knowledge as a weapon, or a person on the street using knives, guns or explosives as a weapon?

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline Cymric

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2007, 10:51:29 AM »
Quote
Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
I know the ausweis is forced upon me. But I don't give a sh*t. I do not support stasi methods. I don't give a rat's a*se about people feeling 'unsafe'.

Unfortunately, the government must take a different viewpoint. It has the welfare of an entire nation to think of, and not just your own puny life. You may not give a rat's a*se about people feeling 'unsafe': that does not mean that the government should.

Now whether the people are genuinely unsafe, and whether carrying ID around does solve something, is another discussion. There is a lot of silly nonsense floating around, as you are never safe: some determined nutjob can always go on a wild killing spree where you least expect it. There is no defense against this, but people still like to pretend there is. As for carrying ID around: I  don't think it solves anything, but as most people already carry driver's licenses, mobile telephones, agendas and lots of other personal identifying equipment with them, I really don't see what all the uproar is about. Oh, people are quick to shout 'fascist practice' or 'police state', and then dream up tons of wildly speculative scenarios where the cops are forming checkpoints on busy streets to filter out people who reside in this country without a permit. Well, if that were indeed the case, what makes you think that having a proper ID would make you 'safe' in the first place?

Either way, I have no qualms with presenting a form of ID when asked politely by a law enforcement officer in circumstances which are indeed tense or unusual---uproar, demonstration, murder investigation in the house next to me, and so forth. I have never been asked to do so. In fact, I have to present more ID at the post office to claim my mail, or at the gates of companies I visit even to have a quick conversation with someone---and noone has a problem with that. But behold the outcry once the government asks you to carry it around. Then all of a sudden the most dreaded scenarios well up from the depths of human imagination.

In short: I side with moto. It doesn't solve anything; it makes the society only a little more safe, but there really is no harm in carrying it with you. Chances are you'll be happy to have it with you in case you do need it all of a sudden.


Now what is really scary is this nation's decision to track mobile and internet usage for 18 months, a full year longer than the EU-recommended 6, and then expect all data carriers to make the investments themselves to comply with the law. There is no known program which can sift through these mountains of data, even if it is just the routing information (and not the actual data). You'd need a very powerful supercomputer to analyse it, too. Who has and controls access to this huge haystack is hazy to say the least; it most certainly is not decided nor verified democratically. Personally, I think that several shadowy agencies will set up honeypots around known religious or political hotspots, and then work their way from there. They cannot single these out---protected by freedom of speech laws---so instead, everyone now becomes a suspect. Orwell would have been proud.
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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2007, 12:06:32 PM »
Quote

Cymric wrote:
In short: I side with moto. It doesn't solve anything; it makes the society only a little more safe, but there really is no harm in carrying it with you. Chances are you'll be happy to have it with you in case you do need it all of a sudden.
Hmyes, but the problem I have with it is that I am guilty when I do not, instead of only being guilty when I do (something bad that is).
So to say, it's kinda a reverse law enforcement; guilty until proven otherwise. You do not have a passport, ergo you are guilty.
And the canary said: \'chirp\'