Free Money

[stopthegop]

Piru:  

Well it sounds like Finland has its act together in that regard.  Much more so than here in the US, which is what I was writing about since that is where I live (and bank).  Just for argument's sake, lets say you (or anyone) went and initiated a wire from a website that is, shall we say, less secure than the website run by your bank in Finland.  Moneygram, for example.  Maybe Western Union..

On Moneygram, you can wire anyone (even yourself)cash  using a checking account, which is considered "verified" if you have the account number and IBN number.  They also require that you provide a credit card as a "backup funding source".  But what if the credit card belongs to someone else, and the checking account to yet a third person?  I  know for a fact that they don't verify the name you give them against the name on record with the bank or the credit card company.  See how they cover their own *ss by making you (or someone) essentially "pay" twice, but otherwise they play fast and loose by not even checking to see if the person requesting the wire is the same name associated with the checking account and is the same name of the person on file with the credit card company?  

But then again, lets say you're really in a pinch and you need to wire some cash electronically, AND everything is 100% legit?  What then?  Would your bank in Finland allow the wire?  How would it know the difference between these two transfer requests - one legit, the other complete bullsh1t (wrong name, but valid account numbers, etc) and initiated from a website (or even over the phone) by a company that isn't your bank?    

Like I said, if you can wire money in, its probably not that hard to wire it out.
   

[Piru]

@stopthegop

The party initiating (say perhaps I have two accounts, one in two different banks) the transaction uses similar system to log in, that is the only way. There are no third parties involved, the transaction is between banks, or even within the same bank.

Thus, it is always secure.

No-one can remotely draw any money from my account. Only I myself can initiate transfers (exception is the contract where certain reoccuring bills, such as electricity, water, inet are paid automagic, but even in this case I have initiated the draw, by setting up the contract).

Considering this system has been up even before the EU in the current form was formed, and that EU itself is far less integrated than United States, it's quite weird US hasn't been able to set up similar system. Perhaps there are profits involved, and thus resistance against change?

[PulsatingQuasar]

I think you can say that the European Union has it's act together!

IBAN has been put in place by the European Union to transfer money quickly and save. It's my number one choice to send money.

[Belial6]

The US banks are definitely making money of of fraud somewhere.  All you have to do to know that is look at how heavily they push the "Check Cards".  Check cards are basically credit cards that automatically withdraw the money every charge immediately after use.

Here in the US, they even run ads that show how difficult it is to use a check when you don't have any ID, and that with a Check Card, you can just swipe the card and and go.  They are even advertising how you don't even need to sign a receipt now.

It amazes me how many people that I would have thought were mentally capable, happily accept these cards from their banks.

[KThunder]

back in the 60s and 70s here in the states banks started getting automatic check processing equipment and people liked having a definite hard copy of transactions.
in europe checks were pretty much fazed out along time ago. many here dont use checks either, like me. others like my mother dont use cards at all.
if your card is stolen call the bank and they will freeze it and you wont be responsible for charges made to it.
@jeff if your bank accounts are linked the bank will take all the money from your second acount so that you dont overdraw the account. usually you have to sign up for linked accounts. is that what happend?


i like cash

[koaftder]

The banks would rather write off the fraud losses than fix the problem because its simply cheaper and makes more money to just write off the fraud than it is to introduce security and loose money on people not liking the procedure and not going for impulse purchases.

[stopthegop]

One big problem with our system is with online "verification" when using a debit or credit card.  You go to all the trouble of filling in these stupid forms that are supposedly "secure" and it turns out you can enter totally randon bullsh1t for "name", "address", "email", "province", and "occupation".  No comparison is done on any of these fields to verify the initiator is the actual owner of the account.   At most the software might check the zip code against the one on file -- only because its easy.  This isn't true of all merchants' websites, but a damn lot of them.  The banks know this, too.  They have just declared  fraud a fixed expense (like rent) and raised fees to hide it from shareholders.    

How about this scenario?  You setup a credit card to be paid automatically every month from your checking account.  All the data you enter is valid (name, address, ssn, phone number, work, etc..).  When you enter the bank acct. you accidently make a typo and inadvertantly enter the wrong account number.  Since their crappy software doesn't even check the name you enter with the name on the acct, something like that could easily happen!  And probably has.  IMO, US banks get exactly what they deserve with so-called "identity theft" cases.

[JosephC]

What Mr. Piru means is that his bank does not allow him to purchase things online.  Piru is banished from the entire world internet economy.

What the various US posters mean is that they are allowed to purchase things online using their bank account.

Everything has advantages and disadvantages.

[Piru]

@JosephC

What Mr. Piru means is that his bank does not allow him to purchase things online. Piru is banished from the entire world internet economy.

I didn't say CC wasn't available.

It has absolutely nothing to do with my account number, however.

[CLS2086]

@StoptheGap : that's a US and caraiban island problem.

@Piru : can you give all the details on your credit card ? (just the long number, the exp date, and the last 3 numbers at back)  :lol:

For a bank transfert in France, you need to go to your "guichet" and show of proof of identity. You can't steal the money the way you describe. You need a "manuscrit" authorization signed by the account owner with a proof of identity of him and you.

Since the Dark Age, we use and still use a lot "cheque"  ;-)  and there were very few problems.

Because Bank transfert is quite taxed.
3.5e for the transfert (if is inland or in europe in a partner bank or the same bank !)
5.10e for the "treatment" (if is in europe not in a partner bank or if 1 information is missing or wrong !)
and some more bank fees depending the amount  :-o
Add 8e more if it's not in Europe ...  :-o

For the CreditCard transfert, you need just the long number, the exp date, and the last 3 numbers at back.
And the top of the top, some banks take fees if you use your card more than 5 time in a month to take cash in an another bank.

[PaSha]

Belial6 wrote:
The US banks are definitely making money of of fraud somewhere.  All you have to do to know that is look at how heavily they push the "Check Cards".  Check cards are basically credit cards that automatically withdraw the money every charge immediately after use.

Here in the US, they even run ads that show how difficult it is to use a check when you don't have any ID, and that with a Check Card, you can just swipe the card and and go.  They are even advertising how you don't even need to sign a receipt now.

It amazes me how many people that I would have thought were mentally capable, happily accept these cards from their banks.

In Norway, and most places in Europe AFAIK, we have PIN codes on these cards...
No/Wrong PIN = No money
(unless you yank out the phone line from the card terminal, in which case you'll have to sign the receipt and show ID).
Correct PIN basically serves as the signature.

Oh, and btw: My bank has no fees whatsoever, except a 30 EUR yearly fee for the Debit/VISA card.
Usage of the card is free, so is paying your bills, transferring money, etc...

Cheques are only used by old people every now and then, debit cards have been common since the early 90's

[pyrre]

(unless you yank out the phone line from the card terminal, in which case you'll have to sign the receipt and show ID)

You still need the correct pin code... If not, the card will decline the purchase. Even when the phone line is unplugged...
In norway, at least... That i know for sure...

About security:
I was buying some airsoft equipment from japan, using visa.
The total amount of money was about, 1400 USD...
I got a phone call from VISA Norway asking if the transfer really was legit... That surprised me...

[koaftder]

pyrre wrote:

(unless you yank out the phone line from the card terminal, in which case you'll have to sign the receipt and show ID)

You still need the correct pin code... If not, the card will decline the purchase. Even when the phone line is unplugged...
In norway, at least... That i know for sure...

About security:
I was buying some airsoft equipment from japan, using visa.
The total amount of money was about, 1400 USD...
I got a phone call from VISA Norway asking if the transfer really was legit... That surprised me...

Doesn't surprise me, $1,400.00 is a hell of a lot of money for toy guns dude. What did you do, buy a few for every kid in your neighborhood?

[countzero]

Piru wrote:
Maybe I should explain how "online banking" works here in Finland.

In order to get access to my account you'd need to know my user id. It is no way related to my account number or any personal information.

Second, you'd need to know my password. It is no way related to my account number or any personal information.

Once you've logged in, in order to do any transaction you'd need to know challenge-response number from a key list (say, "enter security ID #75"). Needless to say, the lists are totally random and I have the only copy. One number is used only once. Once all the numbers are used I can order a new list (and the numbers on that particular list are only activated at that time). Note that the list itself is useless unless if you know the user id and password, too.

My bank in Turkey started something similar in these lines. Whenever I do a transaction online, they send a confirmation number to my cell phone by SMS. The transaction doesn't take place unless I enter the confirmation number in 15 minutes.

and no, you can't change the cell phone number on file without personal application (to the bank).

Now, although this feels quite secure, it rendered online banking totally useless for me, cause my cell phone doesn't work here in japan  :headwall:  :headwall:  :headwall: (Turkey uses GSM like most of europe while japan has CDMA, no possibility of roaming)

[nBit7]

If you know enough personal details and some basic bank account details it really shouldn't be too hard to steal someone's money.

Just ring the bank and tell them you have forgotten your internet username/password.  After a series of questions about 'you' they will reset the password.

So I would agree that putting part of the bank details in public view is not a good idea.

[koaftder]

If I stuck a gun in somebody's face, I bet I could get all their money and I wouldn't even need the codes!