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Offline MalletteTopic starter

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A4000D "Native" OS?
« on: July 15, 2007, 12:49:09 PM »
Fresh from my success in getting the A4000D part of SimStation living again, I now turn to getting it up to snuff.  I've figured out on my own that the 3.0 Dos I have on it is not native.  Should it be 3.1 or 3.5?  Does 3.9 work without any hardware changes and should I go straight there rather than load 3.5?

Starting days off and that means QUALITY time with my miggy...

Dave
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Offline mjg59

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2007, 01:05:13 PM »
4000s were shipped with 3.0 originally.
 

Offline MalletteTopic starter

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2007, 01:12:55 PM »
Hmmm....

My assumption was based on the lack of 24bit and other extended resolutions.  Mine booted to 640X400 (Yuck) and the only (asided from PAL) larger desktops were like 1280X400...a rather strange size.  

I'd like something around 800X600  or 1024X768 for a variety of productivity reasons, and certainly 24bit support.

Perhaps I misunderstand the A4000 features?

Dave
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Offline Karlos

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2007, 01:20:44 PM »
Quote
I'd like something around 800X600 or 1024X768 for a variety of productivity reasons, and certainly 24bit support.


To use bonafide 24-bit modes in 1024x768 you are going to need a graphics card. The native hardware isn't really capable of anything beyond 8 bits per pixel*


*note that this doesn't restrict you to 256 colours, since HAM8 mode and clever modifications thereof can reproduce much greater apparent colour depth, but said modes aren't really useful beyond picture viewing applications and selected art packages.
int p; // A
 

Offline quenthal

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2007, 01:21:27 PM »
As you probably know, part of the OS in Amiga usually is in the Kickstart ROM (some system libraries etc.). With UAE you have some kick.rom image instead, usually the version can be identified by it's filename. You can probably check the version from early start-up menu too and of course from the chips directly if they still have some stickers on them (Kickstart information at TBBOAH)

If you have Kickstart 3.0 chips on your A4000, easiest route would be using Workbench 3.0 (AmigaOS3.0) with it. However if you have Kickstart 3.1 chips in it, you can use without too much hassle AmigaOS3.1, 3.5 or 3.9.

Combining those and with some startup utilities depending on different versions of system libraries could very well been the reason for that "invalid version" issue you had some time ago.
A4000/CSPPC&060
 

Offline Amigaz

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2007, 01:21:40 PM »
Quote

Mallette wrote:
Hmmm....

My assumption was based on the lack of 24bit and other extended resolutions.  Mine booted to 640X400 (Yuck) and the only (asided from PAL) larger desktops were like 1280X400...a rather strange size.  

I'd like something around 800X600  or 1024X768 for a variety of productivity reasons, and certainly 24bit support.

Perhaps I misunderstand the A4000 features?

Dave


Then you need a graphicscard my friend
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Amiga 4000T - A3640 '040
Amiga 4000 - CS MKIII
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Offline MalletteTopic starter

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2007, 01:26:38 PM »
It's a learning experience...

I did once have an Opalvision card for a 2000 that worked nicely.

I presume such things are only available through Ebay, etc?

Any suggestions?

Anyway, I certainly misunderstood the changes to the 4000 series...I thought 24bit was one of them.

So how does it go up to 1280X400 without supporting anything "in between"?

Dave
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Offline Flashlab

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2007, 01:26:43 PM »
I think you overestimated the 4000. Look at what ECS can do and what AGA can improve on that.

So no 24bit 800x600 screens, you need graphics card for that. Look here at what hardware was made for the Amiga.
Amiga 4000D Cyberstorm PPC 060@50 604@200 SCSI 130Mb Ram G-Rex Voodoo3 PicassoIV Paloma Ariadne Delfina Lite

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Offline MalletteTopic starter

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2007, 01:35:40 PM »
Thanks, Flashlab.  I love a good response that provides concise info.

So, I am up to speed.  Thinking back, I had, at one point or the other, a Toaster, a HAM-E (loved that "glow" cycle mode), and an Opalvision (not listed on the graphics card site...but a really great card with an excellent 24 bit paint program).

Anyway, most of my work will be 2Danims for video use, so it is really only desktop work area that I'll be missing.  256 colors is more than adequate for my needs.

However, I might consider a 24bit card once I see just how much time I wind up spending on the miggy.  I still have Image Master (had some nice features) LightWave 3D, and a few other nice progs in their final versions I might want to revisit.

Thanks,
Dave
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Offline MalletteTopic starter

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2007, 01:38:53 PM »
quenthal:
I see where you are coming from, the the "invalid resident library" message suddenly appeared on the ORIGINAL SimStation boot disk to which I've made no changes.  

Something else went south there and I've got to figure it out...

Dave
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Offline Flashlab

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2007, 01:41:39 PM »
You're welcome!

The Opalvision is listed on the Amiga Hardware site. It's under non-RTG cards. To have Workbench work in 24bit colours you need RTG (Picasso96 (P96) or Cybergraphics (CGX)). All cards that are supported in a RTG package are listed unhder the RTG graphics cards.

A graphics card will not only give more colours and higher resolutions but also more speed. I have such a card and I can't go back no more!
Amiga 4000D Cyberstorm PPC 060@50 604@200 SCSI 130Mb Ram G-Rex Voodoo3 PicassoIV Paloma Ariadne Delfina Lite

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Offline Karlos

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2007, 01:43:06 PM »
Quote
So how does it go up to 1280X400 without supporting anything "in between"?


Actually, there are plenty of modes you can dream up inbetween, depending on which one of your Devs/Monitors drivers you start with and how you choose to tweak your overscan settings. People have used tools like MonED to create drivers for 1024x768 (or close) but they tend to be for specific monitors and even then aren't guarenteed not to harm your monitor :-/

As for the strange resolutions like 1280x400, that's pretty normal for the amiga and goes back to the somewhat strange notion of having separate horizontal and vertical resolutions. Back in the OCS day, you had "lores" which was 320 pixels wide, "hires" which was 640 pixels wide. Either could be displayed as "normal" (200 lines for NTSC, 256 for PAL) or "laced" (400/512 lines, interlaced).

Normal "hires", with it's perculiar thin rectangular pixel aspect was generally used for the desktop, since interlaced modes generally caused peoples eyes to melt.

ECS added "super hires", which doubled the horizontal resolution again. In conjunction with interlace, it gives the same aspect ratio as normal hires but with four times the area visible.

Available graphics cards use chipsets that that have the more familiar square 4:3 aspect ratio.

The good news is that there are plenty of different graphics cards available for your 4000, from old Z2 cards (not recommended), Z3 capable cards (the Picasso IV, though old, is highly regarded) up to PCI cards with a suitable PCI board.

The bad news is that such solutions can end up costing a bit. The PIV is out of production so they tend to fetch pretty high prices on eBay. You can get compatible PCI cards for a lot less but then you have to get the PCI adapter itself and they can go for a bit.
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Offline MalletteTopic starter

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2007, 01:44:42 PM »
I have seen Picasso 96 as software on the WinUAE software, but not looked at it...I assume it is a driver for graphics cards?

So what is the best price/performance card that is reasonably available?

dave
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Offline MalletteTopic starter

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2007, 01:47:35 PM »
Thanks, Karlos...another bit of education.  

I've enough to ask this:  So why no 640X400 non-interlace?  Seems this should be within the technology's capabilities.

Dave
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Offline Karlos

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Re: A4000D "Native" OS?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2007, 02:02:00 PM »
Quote

Mallette wrote:
Thanks, Karlos...another bit of education.  

I've enough to ask this:  So why no 640X400 non-interlace?  Seems this should be within the technology's capabilities.

Dave


It is. 640x400 non interlace is provided by the DblNTSC monitor driver introduced with OS 3.x / AGA.

Alas the DblNTSC / DblPAL modes are not quite VGA scan rate and so not all VGA monitors will display them.
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