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Offline Varthall

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2007, 04:50:54 PM »
Quote

HAHA!  This is so true.  I was cussing out Windows up and down for one of those stupid moments back a couple months ago.  My wife asked me "If Windows is so bad, what's better?"  I stopped and thought about it for a moment.  The best I could come up with is "Well, nothing anymore, really.  I just always thought computing would turn out differently."

What about MacOS X? Or Linux?

Varthall
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Offline odin

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2007, 04:58:47 PM »
Linux is one big kludge.

Offline Doppie1200

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2007, 06:50:45 PM »
Mallette:
Going completely of topic but the topic is useless anyway;

Very cool application you describe there. The application that was demonstrated to me had the goal to train drilling platform workers on-shore.

The idea was that they could move around in a 3d-world that is a 100% replica of the drilling platform where they are going to be stationed. This way they could get to know the environment in an interactive way. The whole application was to run on a playstation based platform so it would be very easy to produce and maintain.

I doubt this project has amiga roots.

Those concerned:
Back to the topic.

This is my view and this is the last thread I'll post this. The story is in danger of getting older than my car.

Amiga had a innovative leading edge (in 1984 remember this!)
Commodore couldn't sell water in the desert and bought Amiga
Commodore milked amiga for all it was worth.
Commodore went bust in (was it 1993?)
Amiga did not have the innovative leading edge
Amiga stood still since then.
Amiga lost fame and name since then.
So, if something is resurrected and manages to fill a niche market it is not a very good idea to call it Amiga.
Since I think there is no problem to solve and no demand to satisfy Amiga will remain as is.

One word on DPaint. It runs fine on my A1200, if it is that great I can highly recommend the machine. There is no need to create a new amiga. The old one is sufficient.
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Erno

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Offline MalletteTopic starter

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2007, 07:14:33 PM »
Yeah, I regret the name of this thread...

I've reviewed a few threads and have learned a lot.  Perhaps the single most devisive bar I've ever had a couple in.  I was such an Amiga head it dang near killed me when when the S.S. Commodore hit (or was steered into) an iceberg well underway to winning the race.  I'd made a couple of hundred grand off it and was just getting started.  However, that was a LONG time ago now and I am comfortable that I can have a snort from time to time without being drawn into mainlining.  If the extreme left here REALLY believed what they say, the babblings of the dreamers wouldn't bother them or they'd just go away.  And the dreamers...well, they abide elsewhere anyway, don't they?  Why does anyone discuss advanced avionics with a happy lunatic?  Either you are not fully convinced they are insane, or short a few cards in your own deck.

Yeah, I guess it makes me sound as though I am "above all this."  I can certainly identify with almost everyone here, as I've been through denial, rage, hope, and acceptance.  Now, like Pooh, I simply AM.  

Forget the religious implications of this well-known quote, but consider the philosophical wisdom and its particular appropriateness here:

(Fill in your favorite diety or leave blank), grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the difference.
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Offline pVC

Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2007, 07:20:35 PM »
@adz

Like easy pixel by pixel work? Good palette handling for non true color formats?

There's more PS/Gimp like programs for Amiga too (ImageFX, ArtEffect, FXPaint, TVPaint, Photogenics, XiPaint, etcetc), but they're more for image processing and truecolor painting etc. For completely different job than DPaint/PPaint/Brilliance/etc pixel exact painters/animators, IMHO.
Daily MorphOS user and Amiga active.
 

Offline Ilwrath

Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2007, 07:56:40 PM »
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But my particular profession needs those DPaint functions.


Yeah, don't get me wrong.  If you ABSOLUTELY NEED cel animation or pixel art, there are slim pickin's nowadays.  The problem is that these things are coming to be a lost art, in general.  Outside the demo scene, I haven't seen anyone do serious pixel work in 10 years.  And as for animation, the current trends have gone toward the Dreamworks-style 3d rendering.  Heck, even the kids' Sunday morning cartoons are mostly 3d rendered, nowadays.  Just the same, you could say no one has written any ASCII art programs in years...  If you NEED to make a new ASCII image (an NFO file, maybe?) you're just out of luck.  ;-)

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As to AutoCAD, you compared the 10% I left out that did not exist at the time.


Well, line drawings on AutoCAD are largely unchanged in the time since its early versions...  But I'd say it's a lot more than 10% that didn't exist back then.  The whole modern drawing methodology wasn't possible just 15 or 20 years ago.  Back then, due to the hardware, people only did lines.  

Nowadays, it's a whole new set of rules, though.  A buddy of mine is a civil engineer.  He uses AutoCAD with a civil pack and does full 3d models of the building plan, complete with parking lots, existing conditions, utilities, etc.,  He takes the 3d model, and from it can calculate required grades, green space requirements, run-off basins, etc., all in the package.  These drawings can be multi-acre 3d topo's.    You can then use the drawings to pull promotional images of the final layouts, and all sorts of other neat things, too.

Plus all the advantages on the mechanical side.  Full detail 3D models open so many possibilities.  Rapid prototyping is really heating up.  Pretty soon it'll get to a stage where you can prototype a part out of an actual material that would be useful.  (Say aluminum vs. the current soft plastics.)  But nowadays, everything is being drawn, tested, virtually assembled, and possibly even prototyped from that  virtual 3d model before it ever hits any production.  

And for CFD and analysis, a modest x86 can pack more than the computing punch of a 15 years' ago Cray or big-ticket SGI, while sitting on the corner of your desk for under $1,000.  THAT is an impressive feat that opens some doors to new ways of doing things.

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Most of my peers think I am rather eccentric for my well known hatred of Microsoft. I try to keep my mouth shut, as I have NOTHING nice to say.


I LOVE my Amigas.  There are certainly things about them I miss in modern PCs.  But I don't really have a hatred for Microsoft or the modern PC.  It's just a different evolution that's yielded some different things.  

And do we really know that the results are all THAT different?  If DPaint were still in production, would it still be the program we love, or would have been dropped due to lack of sales?  Might it have morphed into a Photoshop competitor?  For most applications, it seems that the demand of features shapes what direction programs head in.  Most of the things lacking in new software are lacking because they are no longer commonly used.  Even IF there were a strong Amiga and DPaint, would you still be stuck back at V6 or maybe a V7 because these features were de-emphasized/re-featured?  It's all a possibility...

Of course, the counter-argument is always that no one is requesting these features because no one ever knew they once existed.  Also a possibility.  It's the only way I can fathom the 5 billion features in Word, yet no good Final Writer style dictionary/thesaurus.  :lol:

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Occasionally someone says "Well, at least he brought conformity" and I must bite my tongue severely to avoid asking if they admire Hitler for the same reason...


:lol:  Yeah, I'd say we could all agree that a lack of diversity is rarely a good thing.
 

Offline Starrfoxx

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2007, 08:54:50 PM »
Quote

guru-666 wrote:
the fact of the matter is we have moved on.  Linux is where most of the amiga community ended up.  



Or Macs, from what I've heard and read.


Quote

Mallette wrote:
stopthegap:
HOW TRUE!  I hate to think how many peecees I've spent thousands on over the past 15 years only to wind up in the garage.  I through out probably 10 last summer when I moved and the remains of many more...

Disgoosting...


In the past 10 years or more, I am now on my 3rd custom built PC.  I still have hardware in this new PC I built that is rather old.  But the PC I just built will last me for the next 5 years or so.  And my former PC is now my daughter's computer.

So I disagree, today's PC is not next year's trash (unless you buy it from Wal-Mart).  When I build a PC, I purposely try to keep room for future expansion and upgrades.  I don't want to trash anything out.  I try to get my money's worth and extend the life as long as possible.  I learned this from my years of owning an Amiga.   :-D
 

Offline nyder

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2007, 09:46:32 PM »
If someone truely wanted to honor the Amiga, is would be to write an Amiga type OS on the x86 platform.
Not compatable with the old amiga's apps, but in the spirit of what was probably the best ever OS to grace a home computer.

Windows sucks, badly.

Linux is nice and all, but as a desktop it will probably never become anything decent.

I say do it OS X style, take a great Unix base and build up the New Amiga OS.

Screw needing to spend money on new hardware, screw these promises that are nothing but wishful thinking.


I know it's not going to happen, but it's what I think would be best anyways.

but then, you never know.  If the bases of an OS that wasn't bloatful, and ran fast in very little memory, got spread around that ran on machines people owned, their might be more people into working on it.

But like I said, won't happen.  People with the money want to waste it on exotic hardware that no one owns, or can afford to buy, or stupid plans that really have no chance of working.

If the people who own Amiga now really cared about those of use who have been using them for the last couple of decades, they would of made development for it as cheap as possible, if not free to download.]

So accept that we are on our own, like we have been for the last decade.  

If people are serious about some sort of modern Amiga, thats fine, but be smart about it.  It's not about the hardware anymore, those days have been long over, it's all about the OS and a low cost.

 

Offline AmigaRises

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2007, 12:33:11 AM »
@ Nyder:

Its about a lot more than what you say.

There are people who wish to own a new amiga komputer for a reason, because they wont to show their friends that its all the Amiga branded names, and not just X86 that you can pick up from the local swapmeet.

Having said that, I can undertand how your idea still has good reasoning behind it, I kinda just said it also, SWAPMEETS!
[color=990000]AmigaWillRise[/color]
 

Offline AmigaRises

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2007, 12:41:12 AM »
@ Starfoxx:

You are obviously no gamer, if you want to run Oblivion on you 5 year old hardware, it wont happen.

Ccccccccccccccyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! :-D
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Offline MalletteTopic starter

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2007, 12:47:19 AM »
llwrath:
Eloquent response, well written.  Only a few comments. (Editors Comment: That was before I went ballistic... :oops:)

I do not use AutoCAD anymore as it is far too expensive for the P&ID's, flowcharts, etc. I need.  I miss it, but Visio does the job and imports dwg file (sort of) when required.  I was a command line AutoCAD user and loved that, but things move on.

"But I don't really have a hatred for Microsoft or the modern PC. It's just a different evolution that's yielded some different things."

In spite of my claim to have accepted living in a computing world where advances in OS stopped 15 years ago, that statement stirs me.  Those "different things" are an archaic kernel still reliant on virtual memory in a world flooded with the real thing, dirt cheap.  It was an awful idea even when memory wasn't so cheap.  "You have to restart your computer for these changes to take effect.  Would you like to restart your computer now?"  But OF COURSE I WOULD, I LIVE to restart my computer.  See, you did it, brought out the hatred in my soul (deep breath, Credo in Latin in the brain for a moment).

"Of course, the counter-argument is always that no one is requesting these features because no one ever knew they once existed. Also a possibility. It's the only way I can fathom the 5 billion features in Word, yet no good Final Writer style dictionary/thesaurus."

You are on to something there.  The majority of computer users today have nothing to compare thier experiences with.  The big lie has triumphed in a way no novelist could possibly emulate.  People expect their machines to go south a couple of times a day, and to have to reboot after every little thing, and to have Microsoft constantly checking to see if they are "Genuine."  My God, I am a Texan and such assumptions about my honesty bring out the worst assumptions of the rest of the world about us.  This OS is designed to produce a constant revenue stream and force replacement as often as possible by either simply saying "that's 5 years old and we don't support it anymore" and changing things to where it just doesn't work, putting and endless SN that serves only to get separated from the disk that requires it and has no function other than to make it useless, or losing the disk such the SN you have is no good...

OK, I've probably worn out my welcome in three days here already.  I will try to behave.  About the only trolling (and I do NOT mean you, llwrath!) I am likely to succumb to is ANYTHING suggesting Windows has some useful feature.  I am a sucker for that, as I just demonstrated...  At least I minimized my greivance list.  The complete one requires more bandwidth than I have available.

Regards,
Dave

Where would we be today without Bill Gates?
 

Offline Ilwrath

Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2007, 03:56:32 AM »
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Eloquent response, well written.


Yours, as well.  I consider it one of the more interesting threads I've been in for a while.  

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Those "different things" are an archaic kernel still reliant on virtual memory in a world flooded with the real thing, dirt cheap. It was an awful idea even when memory wasn't so cheap.


True points.  The kernel probably isn't everything I'd hope for.  But then again, I'm not really sure what WOULD be.  The Amiga was lacking here, too, what with apps being able to cause an instant guru and knocking down the system.  Despite the numerous app errors, I haven't had my XP workstation bluescreen (guru equivalent) since an ill-tempered corrupt MediaPlayer CODEC brought things crashing to a halt a couple years ago.  It's hard to blame an OS for crashing when it has a corrupt system file.  Of course, one could also question why Microsoft chose to have MediaPlayer CODECS interact at that deep of a level of the system...  

Virtual memory.  Repeat the Microsoft mantra.  "It allows the lesser used items in RAM to be swapped to disk so there is more RAM available for the overall system."  This sounds great in theory.  But, I agree, in practice it doesn't make much sense in any system.  On the older boxes, disk access was at such a resource penalty that it caused a rather severe performance hit.  And on modern systems, you can have enough RAM that things shouldn't need to be swapped out.  Yet the system still does, so it can free up more system RAM to use for buffering your common hard drive accesses, presumably speeding up your swap?  :lol:  What the heck kind of logic is that?!  I totally agree, the VM model needs a massive rethink and re-tuning.

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The big lie has triumphed in a way no novelist could possibly emulate. People expect their machines to go south a couple of times a day[...]


No offense, but who are these people that have their machines go south a few times a day?  My workstation (XP Pro) has been up and running for the past week and is still crisp, responsive and stable.  My media server (2k3 Server) has been up and serving files (streaming video, mp3, TiVo desktop, etc) for nearly a month now, and was last rebooted because the power went out during a thunderstorm and the APC UPS sent it a shutdown command.  I never got that kind of uptime from an Amiga.  Even my 4000 wouldn't go more than a day or two before memory fragmentation would start hurting performance.  Viruses and spyware will send your Windows build south in a hurry, but really, some standard safety practices and a decent NAT hardware firewall are all the defense you need against that.

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and to have Microsoft constantly checking to see if they are "Genuine." My God, I am a Texan and such assumptions about my honesty bring out the worst assumptions of the rest of the world about us.


Yeah, I'll agree here.  I really hate the "Genuine Advantage" crapola, and consider it spyware, as well.  That's a KB update that none of my Windows boxes have gotten.  You don't actually need it.  There are alternate ways to get to the KB downloads that require "Genuine," if for some reason there is one you really need.

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This OS is designed to produce a constant revenue stream[...]


Yeah, again, another complete agreement.  Microsoft is testing the waters of the "software as a service" idea.  Personally, I hope it falls flat on its face and dies as quickly as possible.  I like my software being MINE, and I want it to stay that way.  I think a lot of people think this way.  If Microsoft pushes too hard, I can see them chasing a lot of people to Open Source, simply because of the issue of control.  IMHO, this could also be a good thing.  ;-)

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putting and endless SN that serves only to get separated from the disk that requires it and has no function other than to make it useless, or losing the disk such the SN you have is no good...


"Please enter word 3 from paragraph 2 on page 61 of the manual."  How about a dongle that takes up a joystick port and endangers fragile CIA chips?  Stupid crap like this has been around forever and isn't exclusive to Microsoft.  :lol:

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OK, I've probably worn out my welcome in three days here already. I will try to behave.


Naw...  I doubt it.  You post some fresh views and interesting ideas and support them well.  :-)  You've gotten 3 long-winded responses from me in a single day.  I can't remember the last time that's happened.  And you've reminded me of a few other things I really hate about Windows that I've turned a blind eye to, in order to not be as depressed.  [sarcastic]Thanks a bunch.[/sarcastic]  :lol:

 

Offline MalletteTopic starter

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2007, 12:49:12 PM »
Thank you sir.

I think I'll leave this thread on idle.  Frankly, I feel I've been give a bit of a pass by some of the old timers here and don't wish to push it.   :-D

I intend to hang around through the resurrection of the SimStation at least, and perhaps longer if I really put it to use.  While the Amiga puddle has shrunk over the years, this appears to be the place where the best (I still have an Amiga T-Shirt with "The Computer for the Best of Us" on it, if anyone remembers that...) have retreated.  

Maybe it's the place to leave a line in the water.  You never know, maybe the Amiga WILL rise again, and bats might fly outta my butt.  It could happen...  :-o

Regards to all,
Dave
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Offline MalletteTopic starter

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2007, 02:05:19 PM »
Hey...I got my first stripe!  :lol:
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Offline persia

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2007, 03:10:51 PM »
Graphics programs

Photoshop - especially for photos, transparent images a snap, lighten, clean photos, crop, enlarge, etc.  How would dpaint do with a 7 MP jpeg?  Is there anything on the Amiga that would handle an 8 MP raw image?  Photshop does without skipping a beat.

TV Paint - The Amiga version is missing two thirds of the features of the Mac or PC version, (scanner support, mp3 support, Multiplane camera, Rotating project, Toon Shadding, Add Border, Scan Cleaner, Lens Flare).  You can't even do animation in the amiga version.

Illustrator, curves, automatic colour harmonies, tracing, this is the key with illustrator, take a bitmap image and trace it making a vector based image.

Fireworks, the web developers tool, add hotspots, etc.  It's vector based like photoshop.

I can't take a camera, download the photos and edit them on an Amiga, pretty standard stuff.  I can't develop website images etc.
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Offline Starrfoxx

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Re: State of the Amiga, 2007
« Reply #44 from previous page: May 25, 2007, 03:33:19 PM »
Quote

AmigaRises wrote:
@ Starfoxx:

You are obviously no gamer, if you want to run Oblivion on you 5 year old hardware, it wont happen.

Ccccccccccccccyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! :-D



I didn't give you the specs of my hardware, and most of it is brand new.

And yes, I can run Oblivion just fine, thank you very much.   :lol: