State of the Amiga, 2007

[utri007]

State of amiga ? I ques is somewhre in America ?? United States of America, one of those states is state of amiga

[_ThEcRoW]

For the playstation?!?!?!?

[deBrun]

Oh really?!?

I TOTALLY DISAGREE!  I've seen this picture weaved before.  There is NO hope to change anything because everything is all locked up by the 'big players' so there just isn't any point in trying.  

Let's take a whiff of reality here of the true business landscape.

If all the Big Players had everything all figured out and nothing new could come along, how do you explain:

Google VS Microslug Yahoo! etc
Apple VS 10 years ago
Your local bakery
ROCKY

NO, I'm not inviting anyone to dispute that comebacks are impossible by the list I provided.  All I'm saying is-
IT HAPPENS
ITS POSSIBLE
ITS HARD-  That's why I'm disappointed with your post.

Its hard and it takes people that believe to make a difference.  And you know what?  DPaint ROCKS!

Why?  Because its simple, fast and effective.
THAT'S an Amiga advantage right there.

 :flame:  

[guru-666]

but what the point?  

[adz]

deBrun wrote:

Its hard and it takes people that believe to make a difference.  And you know what?  DPaint ROCKS!

Why?  Because its simple, fast and effective.
THAT'S an Amiga advantage right there.

Sure it was, in its day, DPaint was heads and shoulders above all else, however, these days there are far better alternatives. It may be simple and fast, but it only becomes and advantage when it can offer the same functionality and flexibility as current apps.

[stopthegop]

DPaint was heads and shoulders above all else,

I've heard a chorus of people say Dpaint was the best, etc...  So there seems to be somewhat of a consensus in that regard.  What I haven't heard is similarly unanimous praise of any single "current" alternative product.  I think the odds are better of being struck by lightning than seeing two people in the same room declaring "Illustrator rocks!"  I suspect this is because Illustrator is massive, filled to the gills with clever but useless functions, and requires a user manual the size of 'Ana Karenina' and 'War and Peace' put together (only with more complexity).  Gee, that sounds like "fun"...  No thanks, I'll stick with Dpaint.      

however, these days there are far better alternatives

Such as?

It may be simple and fast, but it only becomes and advantage when it can offer the same functionality and flexibility as current apps.

Dpaint is simple, fast. And fun -- fun because it is simple and fast.  Its also "functional" in that it works exactly as advertised.  It is also extremely flexible, thanks largely to Arexx and the modular design of the Amiga operating system.  It is as functional and flexible as one's imagination.  I think juxtaposing "current" apps with increased flexibility is a common mistake.

[adz]

stopthegop wrote:

I've heard a chorus of people say Dpaint was the best, etc...  So there seems to be somewhat of a consensus in that regard.  What I haven't heard is similarly unanimous praise of any single "current" alternative product.  I think the odds are better of being struck by lightning than seeing two people in the same room declaring "Illustrator rocks!"  I suspect this is because Illustrator is massive, filled to the gills with clever but useless functions, and requires a user manual the size of 'Ana Karenina' and 'War and Peace' put together (only with more complexity).  Gee, that sounds like "fun"...  No thanks, I'll stick with Dpaint.      

Visit any photography or digital art forum and you will hear plenty of praise for Photoshop or The Gimp. Sure they are bigger, but they are also worlds apart in terms of what you can do. Try running a digital dark room with DPaint, it just can't be done.

however, these days there are far better alternatives

Photoshop and The Gimp, as already mentioned.

Dpaint is simple, fast. And fun -- fun because it is simple and fast.  Its also "functional" in that it works exactly as advertised.  It is also extremely flexible, thanks largely to Arexx and the modular design of the Amiga operating system.  It is as functional and flexible as one's imagination.  I think juxtaposing "current" apps with increased flexibility is a common mistake.

Photoshop and The Gimp are fun, fast and work as advertised on all my machines and across multiple platforms, even my PPC version of CS2 runs great on my Intel Macbook, who'd of though ey?

Honestly, I don't know why I keep falling for your blatent trolling. What is it about you that makes you rear up every time someone points out that there are better modern alternatives?

[stopthegop]

Everyone who posts here is stating an opinion, but my opinion -- simply because it differs from yours -- is trolling?  Thats fine, you're entitled to your opinion.  Or was that trolling?  Hard to say since we all have opinions.  I guess trolling is done by those whose opinions you don't like?  

To answer your question:  It bugs me when I see computers (or technology in general) described in subjective terms   as unassailable truth, especially when the subjective term(s) is juxtaposed with an actual fact so it appears the entire statement is also a fact, when it is actually nothing more than an opinion.  For example:

"There are better and modern alternatives".  
-True Part = "Modern"
-Subjective Part = "Better"
-Objective Intent:  Modern = Better.  

"There are...better alternatives...with...current apps."
-True Part: "Current"
-Subjective Part: "Better Alternatives"
-Objective Intent: Current = Better Alternative.

I'm well aware what Photoshop and The Gimp can do.  My point is that 95% of what it can do, most people don't do.  All that extra functionality just gets in the way and actually slows down the 5% of functions that most people do use.  The same is true for most if not all "current" commercial apps. MS Office is the ultimate showcase of useless functionality.  

Another aspect of "modern" computing that I simply detest is obsolescence by design.  I don't know about you but I really object to the idea of spending 2 grand on a computer with an expiration date like a carton of eggs.  How can you not be pissed off by that obnoxious behavior?  What if the chemical properties of gasoline changed every couple of months and only brand new cars could run on the new gas, forcing people with older cars to "upgrade" their cars whether they could afford it or not?  
 

[pVC]

Aren't Photoshop and Gimp for totally different area of graphics production than DPaint?

[Mallette]

Honestly, friends, I had no intention of starting a shooting war here, especially a gut-busting, mother-loving OS war...  Probably should know better, as I go back in BBS systems to BITNET and beyond.  

Anyway, I see a lot of apples and oranges.  I'd no more compare GIMP/Photoshop to DPaint than a tray of fixer to a paint brush.  These things are COMPLIMENTARY, not competitive.  Now, how anyone could consider Photoshop's interface user friendly is beyond me.  I am still constantly amazed at how byzantine it can be.  Simple things like batch processing require incomprehensible steps.  I've been using it for YEARS and still cannot believe it at times.  Nonetheless, it does marvelous things in spite of itself.  

One of them is NOT animation.  Creating anims with Photoshop is like building glass houses with a hammer.  

Like others commenting here, I keep hearing some say "there are equal or better tools available."  However, either none are referenced or those that are not only not better, they are often not even of the same genre.  

Using ProMotion a while back, it suddenly occured to me that (unless you codeheads can explain otherwise) the only reason we cannot cycle indexed color in Windows is the lack of a DOS-level (yeah, I know, no DOS in Windows...right!) switch to activate it outside of software.  Is this correct?  Seems many too young to remember such things don't even understand what a powerful tool it was to have something that required little or no system resource to perform beautiful things.  Those 256 color cycle palettes in HAM-E could be mesmerizing!

Finally, switching gears but still related...
I recall in the early 80's while doing graduate work at UNT in Denton, Texas I'd go into the K-Mart and see a wondrous thing.  Cowboys with their familys passing by the Commordore 64 display and grabbing a 64, several software cartridges, and dropping them in the cart along with the beer, towels, and motor oil.  Even on their budget, it did not represent much of a stretch.  I thought the world of common computing for everyone was here.  

Amiga aside, even a 64 would provide the AVERAGE user with a machine capable of doing everything the average world citizen needs today in a stable, reliable, environment.  A 2007 64 would likely have the guts tucked under the 10 key in a cranny...  Problem? Drop it in the trash and get another out of the cupboard.  

Most of the discussion I've seen here, regardless of the position of the proponent or protagonist, do not recognize that we've essentially been frozen in time for going on 20 years.  Peripherals have advanced mightily, as have many other things, but AutoCAD runs no faster (sometimes slower) on my 3.8gHz behemoth than the AutoCAD (which did 90% of the same work) I first ran from dual floppy drives on a 10mHz XT at the National University of Singapore in 1985.  

That is truly sad, my friends.

The Amiga is dead, and I have INFINITELY more faith that Jesus will show up at the UN tomorrow than I have in its potential for resurrection with the mighty Satan firmly in control (no offense intended to anyone with these references).  OTOH, I am equally convinced no other machine is even close to being equal and I sometimes wish I'd never heard of it when I get a "We're sorry, Windows can't find its butt with both hands" message.

JMOH
 

[adz]

stopthegop wrote:

Everyone who posts here is stating an opinion, but my opinion -- simply because it differs from yours -- is trolling?  Thats fine, you're entitled to your opinion.  Or was that trolling?  Hard to say since we all have opinions.  I guess trolling is done by those whose opinions you don't like?  

Granted we all have different opinions, perhaps it has something to with the way I interpret your style of posting.

To answer your question:  It bugs me when I see computers (or technology in general) described in subjective terms   as unassailable truth, especially when the subjective term(s) is juxtaposed with an actual fact so it appears the entire statement is also a fact, when it is actually nothing more than an opinion.  For example:

"There are better and modern alternatives".  
-True Part = "Modern"
-Subjective Part = "Better"
-Objective Intent:  Modern = Better.  

"There are...better alternatives...with...current apps."
-True Part: "Current"
-Subjective Part: "Better Alternatives"
-Objective Intent: Current = Better Alternative.

Well from my point of view all the extra functionality makes for a better product, I don't just assume that modern = better.

I'm well aware what Photoshop and The Gimp can do.  My point is that 95% of what it can do, most people don't do.  All that extra functionality just gets in the way and actually slows down the 5% of functions that most people do use.  The same is true for most if not all "current" commercial apps.

Well, in my case it is the other way round, although I'm sure at some stage I'll find a use for the 5% that I currently have no use for.

MS Office is the ultimate showcase of useless functionality.

Oh my god, we actually agree on something :-o :lol:


@pVC

From what I've seen, anything you can do with DPaint, can be done with Photoshop, The Gimp, PaintShop etc. etc.

[Mallette]

Doppie1200 wrote:
These days I use photoshop and I never looked back at Dpaint. Personal preference I guess. But really the amiga has no technology to offer anymore.

As for drilling? You mean oil drilling? I've seen a pretty impresive training tool for oil platform workers. But it is based on the playstation.

Erno:
Just noticed your reference to drilling.  I am just wrapping up Phase 1 (of 3) phases of a drilling simulator written in Opus (Rule Brittania!), an authoring language I am certain has Amiga roots somewhere.  It will be "best in class" when completed.  

In 1996 I completed Production Safety Systems Training which simulated the safety systems of an offshore platform.  It was coded in CanDo on the Amiga.  CanDo was a non-timeline based language of extraordinary flexibility that took full advantage of multi-threaded multi-tasking like nothing I've seen since.  The machine that brought me to this community was designed to run this application.  It was (to my knowledge) the first U.S. federally certified system for meeting a legal requirement for certification.  In fact, I re-wrote parts of the Code of Federal Regulations to account for interactive (average 12 hours to complete) as opposed to the "old" classroom hours (40) to meet the requirement.  The program cost 2.5 million at the time, but was so successful that Shell, Mobil, UNOCAL, Marathon, Pennzoil, and Chevron ponied up 500,000.00 each within a year to get a piece of it.  That paid for it.  Then, they wanted it ported to Windows.  I took a 500,000.00 contract to do this in 12 months.  I expected to make 150,000.00 or so as all the elements were there.  Little did I realize how incompetent Windows 95 was.  Simple things like independently controlled multiple sounds were not possible.  We had to pay some of Paul Allen's nerds 10,000.00 to write an API (later included in 95 SP2) to allow this.  And that was just one hurdle.  We completed it on time and it has been in continous use on Windows (at 350.00 per student) ever since, though nowhere nearly as smoothly as on its native Amiga platform.  

At the time my patron (ARCO) was sucked up by BP (who could care less about training) I was designing a VR version with Internet reporting to the government.  Would have been cool...3D monitor glasses so one could "walk" up and down stairs to access things.  Easy on the Amiga, but still very problematic and expensive on WinTel.  VR was something I expected to be ubiqitous within a decade...but has been moribund since those heady times.

'nough nostalgia.  I have an Aerial Work Platform simulator to complete.

[AmigaRises]

@Malette:

I like your views here, as I like stopthegop's views now and in the past, you guys say what I think, and use and write sentences of what I want to say on here, but can not due to me not being able to place words at the right times in my sentences.

Also to note, even in my other post, Im sure if one of you went to it, that youd be able to word it the way Id like to spit it to other amigians out there.

Amiga is Amiga, like mac is mac, and microsoft is microsoft.

Now Bill Gates virtually owns Mac these days, so, in reality and effectively he will surely one day own all of mac, and microsoft, and that could lead to disaster for those of us that really detest windows OS's.

Ironic how life goes, things that are too good or different, the normal sea of fish wont buy, and then those truly amazing good things die out over time.

Im glad I am not like many here or anywhere, I would hate to think that I am like the rest of the sea, I like being different, this is me, it is what I am. I like oldschool cars or some new ones that are limited on the roads.

Well, Im sure there are others on here that are not like the sea of fish, but they keep quiet, good on you guys, dont let the normal sea of fish spit negative towards you, because once they do, it will never stop!

I think there is a chance that the two Amiga systems will come out, but Nobody seems to be sure, the only real people that know is Bill McWen and perhaps Amiga Inc's Partners in business.

What I do know is, in the recent 8 months or so, I have seen the most action taken from Amiga Inc in regards to the Amiga Name.

In the end though, I just hope I can buy the upper end system with OS4, so that I finally have a modernish computer that I will not need to replace every year, but perhaps can have for ten years!

Cheers!! 8-)  8-)

And all of you are great people in your own ways, im sure of it, just, not all people get along, that's all.

[Ilwrath]

@Mallette

Anyway, I see a lot of apples and oranges. I'd no more compare GIMP/Photoshop to DPaint than a tray of fixer to a paint brush. These things are COMPLIMENTARY, not competitive.

[...]

Like others commenting here, I keep hearing some say "there are equal or better tools available." However, either none are referenced or those that are not only not better, they are often not even of the same genre.

Too true.  But, of course, one may ask why no one has built a better horse-buggy in the past 100 years.  I mean, a car isn't really a direct drop-in replacement for all functionality, is it?  

Photoshop and DPaint are very different experiences and have different strengths.  That doesn't necessarily mean that one can't supersede the other for most purposes, though.  There are some things (like Pixel art and animation) that are much easier in the DPaint environment.  However, for the majority of work, Photoshop gives great results with much more overall flexibility in a fraction of the total time.  This has caused it to become the "good enough" solution, with all the positive and negative connotations that go with that statement.

Amiga aside, even a 64 would provide the AVERAGE user with a machine capable of doing everything the average world citizen needs today in a stable, reliable, environment. A 2007 64 would likely have the guts tucked under the 10 key in a cranny... Problem? Drop it in the trash and get another out of the cupboard.

Yeah, I've thought about that, too.  It's a whole different view of "computing as a commodity" than what we ended up with.  In a lot of ways, I really wish this view would have caught on more.  The average person doesn't really need all the power and flexibility of a full computer.  In fact, they get in a lot of trouble with not knowing how to handle it. (Spyware, viruses, etc.)  A tight, lean, purpose-built machine would be more resilient to these hazards.

Peripherals have advanced mightily, as have many other things, but AutoCAD runs no faster (sometimes slower) on my 3.8gHz behemoth than the AutoCAD (which did 90% of the same work) I first ran from dual floppy drives on a 10mHz XT at the National University of Singapore in 1985.

Now, I'd HIGHLY disagree here.  The one thing I LOVE about the modern x86 (x64, or whatever) is the raw power of the platform.  Taking that AutoCAD, it's now possible to create  complex meshes and surfaces containing millions of points.      Heck, it's a breeze to make them into complex volumetric solids and export them to the CFD model and run some heat or flow analysis in a few minutes, even.  Try THAT on the XT.  Better not exceed a couple hundred data points before that massive 16MB of RAM dries up.  Nevermind CFD models, a simple AutoShade picture was a multi-day affair.

OTOH, I am equally convinced no other machine is even close to being equal and I sometimes wish I'd never heard of it [Amiga] when I get a "We're sorry, Windows can't find its butt with both hands" message.

HAHA!  This is so true.  I was cussing out Windows up and down for one of those stupid moments back a couple months ago.  My wife asked me "If Windows is so bad, what's better?"  I stopped and thought about it for a moment.  The best I could come up with is "Well, nothing anymore, really.  I just always thought computing would turn out differently."

[Mallette]

As you so eloquently put it, we are largely agreed.  

Few points:
DPaint/Photoshop - Again, I see these as complimentary.  Whether on the Amiga or anything else I never found ANY one stop software.  It takes the best of several packages to get the job done.  Problem is that the best functions of DPaint are not possible or not available in Photoshop, not simply under represented...and that is true in the inverse as well.  But my particular profession needs those DPaint functions.

As to AutoCAD, you compared the 10% I left out that did not exist at the time.  I did not then nor do I now use or require 3D functionality from AutoCAD.  Just 2D P&ID's.  The old XT chip and math copper handled the math just fine, though the screen redraws could be slow...but, of course, those were due to the graphics cards, not the CPU.  I still have a hundred or more large scale drawings done at that time and the only difference now is more colors and faster screen refreshes...and the awful Windows interface.

Finally, your wife's comment is germane.  The masses don't have a clue.  Windows is all they've ever known.  Most of my peers think I am rather eccentric for my well known hatred of Microsoft.  I try to keep my mouth shut, as I have NOTHING nice to say.  Occasionally someone says "Well, at least he brought conformity" and I must bite my tongue severely to avoid asking if they admire Hitler for the same reason...

Kind regards,
Dave

[Varthall]

HAHA!  This is so true.  I was cussing out Windows up and down for one of those stupid moments back a couple months ago.  My wife asked me "If Windows is so bad, what's better?"  I stopped and thought about it for a moment.  The best I could come up with is "Well, nothing anymore, really.  I just always thought computing would turn out differently."

What about MacOS X? Or Linux?

Varthall