Enter the Dragon or enter the vapor?

countzero wrote:

410MIPS of processing power that is fully 68k compatible.

NOT ! Coldfire is not fully 68k compatible. emulation degrades it to normal 68040-68060 performance. That's why elbox abandoned/shelved it. Now, if we were in the early 90's, and software vendors were available/willing to recompile their stuff for coldfire, it would be meaningful, but unfortunately we're in 2007, and there isn't any software vendors around, so coldfire is mostly a useless effort. still I would like elbox to release it. maybe if some crazy person ports a decent browser to it, it may be profitable, NOT. but probably wouldn't hurt elbox anymore, since they already did the R&D.

Apparently you didn't read what I just posted above.

I said the full compatible instructions cause a loss of performance.

Nonetheless, if the V4e provides similar performance to a 68060, the 060 costs more than 600$ (just the chip) while the 5475 costs 42$.

It still makes for a very low cost and quite powerful box.

But considering what I found to post the previous message, I would still expect it to outperform the fastest 060 2:1.

mel_zoom wrote:
Is there any valid reason why a coldfire couldnt run a hotspot-JIT for 68K?

JIT implies emulation. On the V4e core there is no need for emulation.

It is simply that, just like on a real 68040/68060, instructions take more than one cycle to complete.

However, the fastest 68060 runs at 75MHz. Presently, the V4e core is available at up to 266MHz.

Also, while the 68060 has a total of 16k of cache, the MCF5475 has 64k. Plus an internal 32k of super fast SRAM that's perfect to put an ultra fast stack.

Also, since the V4e core has a built-in DDR-SDRAM controller, you can have external RAM just as fast as the CPU itself... making the cache only useful to alleviate the RAM's latency.

[Louis Dias]

There are tools on the Freescale site that supposedly analyze a 68k .exe and convert it to a cf .exe. I don't see why as a user, I run this app on my 68k executables and save the new version off as run it and see what happens.

...but anyway, I thought the big problem was the lack of a "Supervisor" mode...

[guru-666]

nobody is building anything... there are like 10 guys left in the amiga scene.... not realy a "market".

Want a new amiga... look on eBay.

[Zac67]

The only way to get a Coldfire running 68k software is to compile a huge database that knows how to patch every little bit of software around (you can call it the Microsoft approach, that's 'Legacy Support' in Windows) - a gigantic effort and no one is going to do it.

If you consider using JIT: no point in using a Coldfire in the first place. A fast, basic x86 mainboard + CPU is available for little more than $100 (see Amithlon) - why spend more on a board that actually offers less? Because the x86 board is able to run Windoze? Come on...

[Tripitaka]

This forum has allready had a thread about recompiling for Coldfire (feck knows were, I can't be bothered to look)and if I remember correctly "clean system friendly code" was pretty much a case of pumping the code through the above mentioned tools. Not all code is "clean" & "system friendly" however but I don't recall the specifics.
The Polish demonstration showed the Dragon as being rather impressive and I have little doubt that many Coldfire naysayers are only saying "can't do, won't do" due to some bizare retro 68k religious attitude.
All that's said and done is just a big steaming pile of nonsense until......I've said it before and here I go again....IT'S ALL WORDS UNTIL THE SILICON IS IN MY HANDS!!!! :-D

[Gavilan]

@guru-666: you can call me naive, you can call me stupid  :-D or you can call me a true believer...but...
Less than 2 years ago, i was almost the ONLY Amiga user in this part of the world.
NOW, we are over 25 ACTIVE & proud Amiga users. (So your guessing of 10 Amiga users should count up to 35 now)

Some of them come from different platforms, some of them have a LOT of skills (and i mean A LOT), and are willing to do almost anything to keep the platform alive

Unfortunately (for them), not all of them can read/speak english , so im kind of "official translator" or something like that, when it comes to talk about news or anything Amiga-related :-D

Anyway, to my point: some of them, suggested me yesterday, if it would be possible to make an accelerator for the Amiga using parts of Macs (i know it may sound like insane to some of you, but this friend actually thinks that using some custom chips from Macs he can build Amiga ccelerators, if instructions are given to him. Hes got a lot of knowledge about soldering & about chips, has a lot of tools to do the job, he even told me he might be able to fix one of my defective PPC cards (i yet have to see that to believe), he has a lot of love for the platform and wont let her die..)

Anyway, guys, i know that a lot of talented, full of skills and very capble guys of the Amiga scene read this, so if anybody has any toughts about how to assemble an accelerator...drop me a line...

Regards

Sebastian

[Tripitaka]

Zac67 wrote:
A fast, basic x86 mainboard + CPU is available for little more than $100 (see Amithlon) - why spend more on a board that actually offers less? Because the x86 board is able to run Windoze? Come on...

Oh come on, you know why, It all comes down to what you consider an Amiga to be. Some people need the real thing, others are happy with emulation. I use my creaking old A1200T in favour of UAE most of the time and my PC is way faster (AMD 4200 X2), it just "feels" better.  :-D

[guru-666]

@gavilan
I would say naive would be the bast way to describe it your perspective.

BTW there are 5000 isch members on this site alone.  thats tiny in the persepective of a market.  (I don't think that all 5000 are active members either.)

when I said that there where only 10 users left, I was exagerating.  there are maybe 5000....worlddwide... LOL.  Not all current amiga users care about some coldfire nonsense that  has nothing to do with the amiga anyway.... so maybe you move a few hundred units.... best of luck with the future.

@Zac67
zac is right!  whats the point exactly?  

[Tripitaka]

@ Gavilan

Cool, I just signed up to an Open University course to study a Ba Sci +Honours in Computing and design. I hope the platform still survives (and grows) by the time I finish. It would be good to give something back to the machine that got me into computers in the first place.  :-D

[Tripitaka]

.....and no, before anyone thinks I'm  totally mad, I did not join the OU to become an Amiga developer. That would be ...silly.

Zac67 wrote:
The only way to get a Coldfire running 68k software is to compile a huge database that knows how to patch every little bit of software around (you can call it the Microsoft approach, that's 'Legacy Support' in Windows) - a gigantic effort and no one is going to do it.

 :madashell:  :madashell:  :madashell:

Its NOT needed in the V4e core!!!

All previous cores needed that but not on the V4e!!!

Anyways, at 42$, a Coldfire is actually much cheaper than x86.

[MskoDestny]

eslapion wrote:
Its NOT needed in the V4e core!!!

All previous cores needed that but not on the V4e!!!

Well, yes and no. The V4e solves most of the bigger compatability problems, but it's not perfect. There are a couple of multiplication instructions that set flags on 680X0 chips but don't on ColdFire and the floating point format isn't compatible (80-bit vs 64-bit IIRC). Plus there are still a bunch of instructions that aren't implemented on the V4e so you either need to emulate those instructions by trapping exceptions (as the library supplied by Freescale does) or write a dynarec/JIT that translates the offending instructions before executing them.

[Kronos]

Anyways, at 42$, a Coldfire is actually much cheaper than x86.

Cheaper than what x86 ?

Just for fun checked a big german mailorder shop (for endcostumers), and voila! AMD Sempron64 3000+ (boxed and with VAT) for 30 Euro  :crazy:

MskoDestny wrote:

eslapion wrote:
Its NOT needed in the V4e core!!!

All previous cores needed that but not on the V4e!!!

Well, yes and no. The V4e solves most of the bigger compatability problems, but it's not perfect. There are a couple of multiplication instructions that set flags on 680X0 chips but don't on ColdFire and the floating point format isn't compatible (80-bit vs 64-bit IIRC). Plus there are still a bunch of instructions that aren't implemented on the V4e so you either need to emulate those instructions by trapping exceptions (as the library supplied by Freescale does) or write a dynarec/JIT that translates the offending instructions before executing them.

Freescale says the 68882 is available as an external peripheral to the Coldfire. Do they make 266MHz version of the 68882?

If so then there is a potential solution to the floating point problem.

As for the instructions that require trapping, how do the Freescale library perform?

[Donar]

In my understanding the V4(e) core needs a Program (the CF68klib which is provided by Freescale (Programed by MicroAPL) to run 68k code properly.

There are two ways this CF68kLib works
a) Run code, trap out when needed -> The opcodes that are "double" in 68k and CF and behave differently can not trap out and do whatever they should do in Coldfire world. Maybe that is a bit different to what they would do on 68k.
There are only a few (4?) opcodes that are double between 68060 and coldfire V4e instruction set an behave differently, but it is a valid point when speaking about binary compatability.

b) Set up an virtual 68k on Coldfire but without MMU and FPU, run 68k code. One problem could be if you want to emulate an 68060 (because there are only a few (4?) opcodes that are double between 68060 and coldfire V4e instruction set) that you probably need an MMU for your AMIGA to work...
You could emulate an 68030 but i think it has more unupported instructions, which should slow down the Emulation...

Someone (i think his name was Darek Smirtana?) from Elbox wrote in a forum post that they had to write their own software because the one that was provided by Freescale did not work, without getting more specific.

I also think (like eslapion) that if the Coldfire V4e at 266MHz gives a raw Power on 68k code that is at least at an level of an 68060 @ 100MHz i will be fine with it. One could argue that a 68k emulator on an embedded PPC is faster then "Emulation" on the Coldfire and probably cheaper but that is another thing.

The price difference between the Chips (68060 vs Colfire) and goodies (USB/Ethernet/PCI) that come with the Coldfire speak for the Coldfire. Performance wise there are only guesses, and a little Screenshot from ATARI Coldfire Project where "Raw Power" of an Coldfire developer board (V4 @ 200MHz, TOS under 68k Emulation) is equal to TOS running on a real ATARI that is equipped with a CT63 Accelerator (68060 @ 100 MHz)

As for the x86, i somehow have a bad feeling about having one in my AMIGA. It's fine for my PC running UAE but not for the Miggy. If it were for the money i would have sold my Blizzard 1260 on eBay for 200€-300€ already...