Non-Amiga geeks make a boo boo

[Plaz]

Hey, I just relized that we've missed some thing important here as we're all focused on helping with this data retrieval......

Their system was set up by a man who recently passed away.

:-(

Did our fellow Amigan have a name? We've sadly lost a few other members over the past few months as well.

Plaz

[NoFastMem]

Boot_WB wrote:

Amiga folk are, in my experience, generous and happy to help out.

James wrote:
HAHAHAHAHAAH... priceless.

With some exceptions  :roll:

No, seriously. Tell me, does a quick 'dir dh0:' work exactly as you'd expect on a Windows machine or not?

It's bloody alarming to me that anyone who postures as a "windows geek", implying that they're a computing expert, would make the string of guesses and assumptions that he did and decide that it was better to format a random device and see which LED starts to flicker than to double-check or (god forbid) read the manual.

[RoseDreamJ]

Again I appreciate everyone's feedback and interest.  I am going to try to answer as many questions as I can that have been asked.  But  I only saw the Amiga for about an hour and a half today.  A lot of what I saw meant little to me until now in retrospect.  Our original main goal was simply to help devise a new database query filter.  However, the 'issue' was raised that no one knew how to format floppies.  We didn't expect to botch such an easy task and thus took little notice or precaution of anything seemingly outside of this small simple task.  Actually our error was mostly in the fact that we somewhat dyslexically saw DH as HD...like high density.  Anyway, the rest is history.

You said all the data was backed up weekly? To what? Using what? On the Amiga, while you can use a dedicated backup program, creating backups really is as simple as copying files to another device and then copying them back if the need arises.

The backups are done directly to the hard drive.  There are actually two backup drawers named BU1 and BU2.  There appears to be both files and at least some applications within these.  But like I said before, the names were very generic to us so we couldn't tell files from apps except obvious ones like Calculator.  The way I am figuring it is that if calculator was in a backup, what wouldn't be.

Outside the fact that the two staff members who use the Amiga know very little about the Amiga except for following routine steps, the man who set up their system clearly knew what he was doing and had been doing so for quite some time.

BTW, I do not know his name.  But if they allow me to, I will post it back here tomorrow.

As for their backup application...after reading this forum, I am assuming that it was Quarterback since that was present on the system's UI (is that Workbench?)  I didn't take much notice of it, or others named like it, since it was a name that seemed to have little to do with any procedure.  But we both recall seeing Quarterback both on the system itself and on floppies elsewhere in the building.

Do you have access to the backed up files? It sounds like they're elsewhere on the hard drive.

That is correct.  We only found during the last minutes the "show all" option.  We found the upper menu on the UI by accident...holding a right-click.  But the number of files that we saw within one of the backup drawers was pretty small...perhaps 25 at the most.  Some of the backups are dated, however...like fileABC2001, fileABC2002, etc.  Yet, the size of the partition we hosed was only 39.6 megs.  So, perhaps we're still ok.

Can you describe the now-missing Main icon? Was it a white rectangular box with a little checkmark in it? That indicates a hard drive partition. Amiga drives can be accessed by either their device name or their volume name.

I wish I could describe it.  There was just no reason to really take full visual inventory at the time when it was present.  But the one staff member said it was more of a graphical icon...like a custom icon from a manufacturer.  She said it looked like 'that one' where that one was a mnufacturer icon.  But honestly, I recall it as a pretty simple white box.  BTW, this was an Amiga 3000..not sure if there was a T after 3000 or not.
 

It sounds like you formatted device DH2: which had the volume name of Main.

That is my feeling as well.  Compared to what I've seen as far as Amiga UI screenshots tonight on the Web, the Main thing seemed like the Work drawer / directory I've seen.  Just a gut feeling based on a whole slew of things I can't really explain without the right Amiga terms.

Did anything else disappear from the desktop (we call it Workbench)? Those were probably files or programs on DH2: that had been "left out" for faster access. Formatting their home caused them to disappear.

There were definitely other items previously on the desktop that are no longer there.  But not many.  I'd guess at 5 being the most but I'm thinking it's really like 2-3.  One I know of for certain was DH0? that I first took to be a query of some sort.  So, that one and Main make two.  At most there were three other items.  But I strongly feel it was more like 1 if any.

It's also possible that Main was a drawer somewhere on DH2: that had been left out, in which case we still need to discover what volume name DH2: corresponded to.

Understood.  I really think Main was volume.  Again I am basing this on little true knowledge except the fact that the setup seemed very organized yet simple.  Outside of the obvious remaining utility icons, they are all task related and named accordingly.

I know I've left a few questions unanswered.  But I will do my best to answer everything after I've had another look.

Oh...the other machine...as I understand it, it is a clone that existed as a backup machine.  Apparently it was updated periodically.  The last time it was updated was shortly before the man passed away which was about 3 months ago.

To me this would mean that the apps are all accessible.  Since the data is most certainly backed up to machine #1's hard drive, we're only going to miss a couple of days worth of data.  But according to staff members, such a thing would be very problematic.  But who wouldn't say that?

The thing that concerns me along these lines is that when we've tried to open a few of the backup files, an error was presented that said something like \main\xyz could not be found.  This leads me to believe that:

A) there are database queries where paths are hardcoded
B) the directory structure of the hosed partition will have to be exactly recreated.

Is it possible to do something as simple as copying DH2 from Amiga #2 to Amiga #1?

If so, from there we'd only have to copy back the backup files, right?

I'd prefer to exhaust all recovery methods first.  More clearly, I'd like to not get into another situation where we have to say 'if only I would have tried that before this method which now makes that impossible'.  Then again, we're kind of already in that position, aren't we.

Thanks again everyone.
 

[RoseDreamJ]

No, seriously. Tell me, does a quick 'dir dh0:' work exactly as you'd expect on a Windows machine or not?

It's bloody alarming to me that anyone who postures as a "windows geek", implying that they're a computing expert, would make the string of guesses and assumptions that he did and decide that it was better to format a random device and see which LED starts to flicker than to double-check or (god forbid) read the manual.

For the record, I wouldn't expect 'a quick dir dh0' to do anything unless I wanted a directory listing of the contents of a directory named dh0.

There was no reason for me to understand dh2 as a device.  Even Commodore 64 had drives A, B, and C.  Before today, there was simply no reason for me to understand there to be other device naming conventions.  Also, the format icon seemed to graphically indicate it was a floppy formatting utility. As with any other formatting utility, I very quickly and erroneously understood these to be formatting options...as in format to this file system and disk size.  Also, I didn't exactly say 'gee, let's just pick that one and see which LED blinks' as you suggest.  I merely mentioned the LED as the trigger behind the realization that I had erred and erred badly.

I fully deserve to be laughed at.  I've already laughed at myself plenty.  But painting me as a complete dolt might be a bit of a stretch.  But thanks for your input just the same.

[James]

I don't think anyone wants to portray you as an idiot really. We're just having a little fun with you, it's all good hearted really.

Formating anything without knowledge of the operating system, when you are asked to perform maintenance duties, is not exactly the best move. You did made a couple of very non-geek-worthy assumptions:

Thinking 120mb would mean 1.2mb. I don't know about you, but every computer I've used tends to give me the right size for its disks, give or take a few k's.

Since you brand yourself a windows geek, you should be used to disk labels. On windows, I call my C "System", D is "Programs" and E is "Data". Trying "Format System:" won't return anything, but "Format C:" might very well format my C drive

Thinking there are no such things as 880k disks is also not very geeky as Macs have been using similar sized disks back in the days.

1.2M floppies also exist, they are high density 5.25 disks. So they are not a little off from 1.44 disks.

Also, you most likely didn't read correctly when you say that DH0 was 880k. It is unlikely that the boot partition would be this small. Most likely it was DF0. Understandably if you don't know anything about the amiga, you might not have seen the 1 letter difference.

Ok enough about pointing errors out.. here's some tricks and a little amiga crash course:

1- What you call a Desktop is the Workbench on the Amiga.

2- Not all files will be displayed on the Workbench. So opening a drawer (folder, directory...whatever) and not seeing anything does NOT mean its empty. The icon information of a file is stored in the .info with the same name.

3- Right-Amiga + E is the equivalent of Start->Run. You can used R-A + E and then type CLI to open a command line shell. It works as you would expect with commands like DIR, CD, MD and the such.

4- The amiga does not work with a registry to know where it's system files are but rather with a set of pre-defined drawers on the system/boot drive. The C drawer for example contains all the commands that you can invoke from pretty much anywhere (usually a command shell, obviously). The LIBS drawer contains libraries and so forth.

5- 99% of the time, the system drive is for the system only. Very few users will install programs in there and I doubt that yours differ. Programs and data are generally kept elsewhere (dh1, dh2 and so on)

Not knowing exactly where the programs and data were kept on the system, it is hard to tell you what exactly you've deleted. One thing is certain: a half-formated drive is no good. Backup what you can from the half dead DH2, and do a proper format before putting all the data back.

With some luck, the guy who setup the computer did a clean job and DH0 is the system, DH1 is the program disk, and DH2 was where the data was being kept. If that's the case that would mean only the data was lost. Format the drive properly, find the weekly backups and copy them back onto DH2. Apologize to the people who hired you for the lost data, and don't expect any money from them.

With a little less luck: DH0 is the system disk, DH1 is the programs, and DH2 is both the data disk and the backup disk. In that case, you're pretty much screwed. As I said, an half-formated disk is no good. You might recover some data, but you are most likely to get corrupted data which is going to cause as much problems as not having any data. That will require you to run DiskSalv and other similar applications. I would advise you NOT to do this as it is beyong your abilities. I'm not saying you're an idiot now.. I'm merely saying that if you managed to screw up on formating a floppy, chances are you'll do more damage to the system with "low-level" system tools on an operating system you're not familiar with. Get someone who is familiar with the Amiga and get him/her/it to work it out.

So sit down with the person that is normally using this computer and ask him where he used to click to perform certain tasks. Try to figure out where the data was save first and foremost. Data is the only thing you're after. Programs can be recuperated from the 2nd Amiga, Aminet, or anyone here...we'll help you out on that if we can. If the data was on the formated disk, it's gone, forget about it. Copy what you can from the dead drive, and store it somewhere safe in case that is all you can salvage, then format the drive properly.

Was the backup automatic or was it done manually? If it was done manually, ask the person where he made the backup and hope he doesn't point you to the formated drive. If you can access the full back up, you've only lost a week of data and just getting the system back on track will most likely satisfy your 'customers'. If it was done automagically, what software was used? Run it and check it's configuration to know where the backup was made and see if it's still allright.

If the backup and the data are gone, they are gone. Change name, sex and underwear and move to another city

[da9000]

I second what James wrote, and I'd add one more thing that I normally do when recovering data, although not so simple for the unexperienced:

I throw the drive into a Linux box (with SCSI, as an A3000 uses SCSI by default), and do a simple:
 dd if=/dev/sda of=/tmp/mybackupfile bs=512

Assuming the HDD is the first SCSI drive (sda), it will dump the entire hard drive partition to a file, which can then be searched for by strings or other software for extracting textual data, or if one is expert enough to reconstruct non-fragmented files by looking at the data.

In either case, it can also be used to "restore" the drive (with the opposite command, CAREFUL: dd if=/tmp/mybackupfile bs=512 of=/dev/sda) in order to try to salvage the data multiple times until you succeed. So basically, if you try to salvage it and it fails, just go back to the Linux box, restore the drive, and try salvaging again.

Also keep in mind, Linux can mount Amiga FS disks, so you can try and see what you can recover that way.

Obviously you're a Windows geek, "two words combined that don't make sense" (Megadeth says so, not I), so you might not have Linux around, in which case you could try a Knoppix CD, which is a bootable Linux, so you won't need to install. Of course there might also be software that does the same thing in Windows, but your mileage may vary, even though the technique would be the same.

All in all, I also recommend you find someone local to help out. Recovery of sensitive data, and especially in a "foreign" environment isn't something I'd attempt if I was a professional or serious about my results.

Cheers and good luck!

One last thing: you or someone knowledgable might want to check out them batteries inside the Amigas, because if they're not used regularly, they will fail and will leak battery acid on the motherboards, making both machines instant door-stops, thus nullifying all your backup/restore efforts. These machines are 15+ years old...

[The_Editor]

And still rocking !!

:-)

[Ral-Clan]

Just to add my 2-cents, and confirm what others have said above:

Okay, there are various partitions on an Amiga hard drive, DH0:, DH1:, etc. as you've been told.  DH0: is USUALLY the bootable partition on the hard drive that contains the operating system (called "Workbench").  Usually, it is the practice of Amigans to keep this partition relatively small and put the Operating System on here (along with its related files like fonts, device drivers, libraries, etc.).

USUALLY the applications and other programs are kept on another partition, often called DH1:, DH2:, etc.

Note that while these drives are assigned the names DH0:, DH1: etc, the icons for these drives can be given different names (DH0's icon might say WORKBENCH or MAIN, DH1 might say APPS, PROGRAMS, or whatever the user wished).

If DH2: is for some unorthodox reason the OS/Workbench partition instead of a data partition then you will not be able to re-boot the Amiga into Workbench if you shut the computer off. In that case, you will be worse off than you are now.

I'm assuming the Amiga has been left on since you formatted the drive.

You mention that sometimes you get error messages saying that a file cannot be found....a few more details about what you are clicking to make this error message occur would be helpful.  I'm guessing that this is because you've wiped certain files from DH2:

I am VERY concerned, that since you started formatting DH2: and then aborted it part way through, you have corrupted the drive quite a bit.

What you have ahead is a very steep learning curve.  Especially if you have to restore or re-install the directory of the boot partition.  I would REALLY suggest you find an experienced Amigan who can help you.  Perhaps a friend of the deceased man who set up the system?  You will save yourself a lot of grief this way.  Rabbi posted above in this thread an offer to stop by and have a look....it would be a very smart to wait for this person.  I know there are other Amigans in New York State on Amiga.org.

I am located in Eastern Ontario.  I suppose in a pinch I could guide you over the phone.....but you have quite a restoration job to do there.....and it would be a very frustrating thing to do over the phone without visuals and without you really knowing much about what you are looking at (not having detailed knowledge of the Amiga system).

Also, you should be aware that there is an icon called CLI: or SHELL in the SYSTEM drawer on the Workbench partition.  That will get you into a MS-DOS like interface.  It might be better for you to use that type of interface....it's more straightforward for low level restoration like this.

[motorollin]

Am I the only one who uses HDx: for my partitions?

--
moto

[Rabbi]

The thing that concerns me along these lines is that when we've tried to open a few of the backup files, an error was presented that said something like \main\xyz could not be found. This leads me to believe that:

A) there are database queries where paths are hardcoded
B) the directory structure of the hosed partition will have to be exactly recreated.

They're probably either hard-coded in the DH0:s/user-startup/ drawer, a setting in the "Preferences" option (could even be a right-button drop down menu) program of the data base program, hidden away in the icon (in the .info file), or just a plain default of the data base program.

The user-startup file is much like the Windoze AUTOEXEC.BAT in concept.

To view any options hidden in an icon .info file, click only once on the icon itself to select it & then go to the top of the screen and do the right-button drop-down menu thing to highlight & release on Icons>Information.

As far as "B)", you are spot on with this.

BTW, the Amiga system uses forward-slashes, "/", not backslashes, "\" as in Windoze systems, as a separator.

is it possible to do something as simple as copying DH2 from Amiga #2 to Amiga #1?

If so, from there we'd only have to copy back the backup files, right?

If you have knowledge about SCSIs, then you'll understand that you can open up the other computer & remove the HD drive and you'll need to place it with a connecting cable to the external SCSI connector on the hosed system.  You'll have to ensure that the HD drive that you'll be connecting will NOT conflict with any other SCSI devices inside.  I would recommend that you open the system & write down what SCSI unit numbers these devices are using (from 1 - 7).  This would be the quickest way.  You're lucky that you're dealing with an A3000 in that has an external SCSI connector.  You'll also need a power source for the HD drive that you'll be attaching.  See if there's an extra empty power connector on the inside of the hosed system.

Also, I am wondering if you've got CrossDOS installed on that A3000.  Any Amiga that's got CrossDOS installed can instantly read & write to an MS-DOS formatted floppy, so formatting a floppy, which you did to start off this headache might've been totally unnecessary had you known if CrossDOS was installed in the Amiga that you hosed, if you had had pre-formatted floppies.

[vpamicue]

Simple answers.
Try DiskSalv 3 free from aminet it has saved All amiga users. If you post a copy of your user-startup from the "s" directory path "SYS:s/user-starup" it is an ascii text file so can be inserted into your post. The guru's that read this will be able to tell you the hard coded paths you should look at.
It would be a good idea to get a hold of local user group or individual most will assist you for a good coffee! If you post where you are located (general) you may just get a reply.

Hope it helps.

[DonnyEMU]

Okay I hate to add to this but I used to be an amiga dealer, so I am going to add to your questions..

as stated before device letters for hard drives on the PC like C:, D, E, don't exist.  A and B are not floppy drive letters.

on the Amiga DF0:, DF1:, DF2: are drive letters just like a and b are

DH0:, DH1:, DH2:, HD0:, HD1: are normally assigned drive letters and names, they could also be SYS:, WORK: the names are completely assignable by the OS..

All of that is scriptable by a batch file (the namings). Some older Amigas weren't equipped with a hard drive and run their software off of multiple floppy disks (the Sys: using being the floppy disk it booted from the workbench disk).

In some very old software for keeping track of people, accounting, etc. if you didn't have a hard drive the software ran a batch file to boot up from that re-assigned drive letters because on the Amiga they are completely assignable. Since a floppy based system didn't have a DH0: or a DH1: or a HD0:, or HD1: people would alias those drive letters in the batch file to match the names of the floppy drives, so they could run one batch file and their drive asssignments for where to find files and system stuff that the would use would still work.

So the question you have to ask yourself is does your system really have a Hard Drive in it.. We need to know for sure. If so formatting the hard drive as you suggested you did probably damaged the system, and you will need to reinstall the system software onto it.. Don't sweat it, because that can probably pretty easily be done if you still have all the floppies that came with the system. You might have deleted data though (Which could be lost without disksalv or quarterback tools). Try quarterback tools first. Disksalv didn't support hard drive recovery until really later versions of it.

all of the batch files or scripts on the amiga are usually stored in an aliased or assigned directory called S:

device drivers are stored in an assigned directory called devs:, Commands in C:, handlers in L:  on the sys: drive but even those things can be moved elsewhere..

I hope this further clarifies..

[The_Editor]

I would hazard a guess She's completely Puggled now !!

Lets form a plan of attackj for her...

List of importance.


1:  Does it BOOT into a graphical user interface ? ( A desktop appears)

YES or No ?

[jbuonacc]

i can't believe that there's not a user here from Buffalo. i'm in Rochester, but that's not too much help. i'm also pretty new to the Amiga myself and would be mostly learning the lower level stuff as i go (i *did* find formatting a floppy pretty intuitive though ;-)). i've seen a C64 user or two from Buffalo, not sure if they're familiar with Amiga though.

you should probably make a new post asking for help in the Buffalo, NY area.

[Boot_WB]

By the way, when people keep referring to Aminet, they mean a website which hosts shedloads of free software and other stuff for amigas.

www.aminet.net

There are several mirrors, but this site has a nice gui which allowas (reasonably) straightforward searches.

I wouldn't try browsing for wahat you want, just searching.  

If you find a program you want it will probably be archived in .lha format (analogous to .zip, .rar, .gz).

Depending which version of the OS you have installed, it may be possible to just double click on the archive to unpack it.  Chances are your a3000 has an older version of the OS though and you may have to do it through the command line interface (CLI).

Hope you manage to get it sorted.



Rich

[Skeeter]

    I just got on this thread . Sorry to hear your problem.   I live in Fredonia (that's only 26 miles away ) and would be happy to help.  I've had Amigas since '87 so I might be able to help resurect your data.  Give me a pm .
 (bmarkham at stny dot rr dot com)