The Next-Gen Amiga hardware

[mikeymike]

@ HammerD

Amiga is never going to be able to fully leverage all the current technologies the PC is using today - and the reason is ... PowerPC

Never say never... imho.  :-)

[Linchpin]

@ mikeymike

£20 would be nice. You got one for sale?

[Valan]

I think your missing the point on this.

It was never meant to compete with PC or Mac.

The A1 was seen as a modern machine for only a short time. It is a vehicle to move the community away from the 68K to native PPC.

It is the slowdown in OS4 development that has caused a slowdown in the hardware development.

We all wish the prices were lower but that is the current state of affairs. I am sure Eyetech and Hyperion are the first to hope for lower prices and hence faster sales.

Valan




Ps.
Even with the facilities of a 'modern' computer with Firewire, Bluetooth, USB2, etc; there are very few times when these can be taken advantage of.

For instance my printer speed depends on the print mechanics rather than the data transfer speed and the same with my CD writer.

The card that fits into my camera transfers files at USB1 speeds even when connected to a USB2 device. Bluetooth is only useful if you have a second Bluetooth specific device and the same for Firewire since most have USB1 as well.

[mikeymike]

@ _LinchpiN_

Sorry, only prototypes.  I can't sell them.  There are also issues running the G9 at anything above 5GHz, I'm trying to fix that problem at the moment.  However, I've written a G9-optimised Quake 3 executable that loads all the pak files into the 1GB L2 cache, and 2048x1536 timedemos are going at ~1047FPS.  Trying to tweak that a bit more.

It should be ready for mass production "real soon now".  Unfortunately the price might have to go up to £25.

[mikeymike]

@ Valan

It is the slowdown in OS4 development that has caused a slowdown in the hardware development.

I don't think so somehow :-)

There are a few reasons why PPC architecture has been slow:

  - Motorola don't care
  - PPC doesn't sell even 5% as much as x86 does, therefore less funds for development
  - Apple like blatantly overpricing their stuff (IMO)
  - When there's only one significant vendor for a particular architecture, there's no competition, where there's no competition there's no development*, and this all equals expensive hardware.

It has nothing to do with OS4.

* - ooh, that was nearly a Yoda EP1 quote in the making :-)

[Valan]

@ Mickeymike

It has nothing to do with OS4.

Hard to believe, but OS4 relates directly to the sales of A1 hardware. Therefore there is no point in developing new hardware when there is no Amiga OS suitable to run on it.

Even though Motorola 'don't care' IBM is developing the PPC family to the point were it can compete with Intel and AMD on the desktop later this year.

Valan


PS.
Not sure about this connection, but anyway even with Apples high prices they are selling and gaining  in their targeted markets.

IBM is competing in the server market with the PPC and doing well. Now we are seeing that technology moving down to the desktop as it too moves to 64 bit later this year.

[mikeymike]

@ Valan

Hard to believe, but OS4 relates directly to the sales of A1 hardware.

Ho ho ho.  Except that no-one to do with the AmigaOne or OS4 designed the Articia S chipset, which holds back a number of innovations being possible.  The Articia S chipset was already designed and its capabilities have not changed due to A1/OS4.  A1/OS4 would have to sell in the hundreds of thousands of units, rather than a thousand or so units, if its backers could start calling the shots with chipset development.

Even though Motorola 'don't care' IBM is developing the PPC family to the point were it can compete with Intel and AMD on the desktop later this year.

Except of course for the small fact that OS4 isn't compatible with the new PPC CPU (the 970?) that IBM designed, and obviously won't be compatible with any of its children.  That'll require more developer time, which might, if we're lucky, come in the shape of an OS4 update, but more likely to be a new version.

Not sure about this connection, but anyway even with Apples high prices they are selling and gaining in their targeted markets.

A drop compared to the ocean of x86 sales, which translates through to funding for development of the x86 architecture even further.

The only way I can see things getting significantly better regarding PPC development would be for the following to happen:

1> AmigaOS 4 + later releases combined with A1 hardware sell in phenominal amounts;

2> This causes Apple to change its tune and bring its prices down, which gets it more sales;

3> The combined increased popularity warrants more funds allocated to the development of the PPC architecture, CPUs as well as chipset;.

4> PPC begins to cut down the huge performance lead x86 has on it.

This might happen over a 10 year span, IMO.  By step 4 I'd guess that the fastest x86 CPUs will be at least 5 times faster than their PPC competitors.

[mindful]

Hello people.
If I might, I have an oppinion. It's just an oppinion, but oppinions are those things that I act on...

Windows is a great consept, an excelent idea. But it still does not work the way I believe it should. Just an oppinion. I think Microsoft is stupid. Just another oppinion. Why? Because I don't believe in an OS (WindowsXP) that requires almost 3 seconds to create a folder. I don't like Windows at all.

I have been using my first Amiga since friday the 13th of June 1991. And I stick to it because I support the consept. But I only got a 68040 / 603 and I very often feel that the speed is a bit slow. Just an oppinion. So I want something faster, with the same consept as my old Amiga. The Pegasos with MorphOS already has that. Does it not? The only problem is that I can't run any of the older hardware-banging programs programs on MorphOS. But hey, that's already a problem on my existing classic Amiga.

As long as the Pegasos with MorphOS keeps their consept, I'm buying one. I need a computer that can let me do mp3, surf on the internet, coding, and write documents. The 68k emulator is not a requirement, just an excelent bonus. Just an oppinion. If I want to run 68k 100% compatible, I'll buy myselves an A1200 with an 68060 inside.

For me it's no longer about having the Amiga label. It's about having the Amiga consept. And for me the Pegasos with MorphOS is 100% Amiga consept. And that's Amiga enough for me. It does not matter if AmigaOS 4 runs on Pegasos or not. As long as MorphOS does what it's supposed to do. Just an oppinion.

 Hell! I'm getting myselves a Pegasos2. The rest of you, do what YOU want :-)

Greets

[Cyberus]

Unless you are an Apple...

No I am a PINEapple

Not sure about this connection, but anyway even with Apples high prices they are selling and gaining in their targeted markets.

I think the high prices allow them to keep developing and keep from going bankrupt (but they already have been there once haven't they(?)) Commodore or any other Amiga producer was never able to compete as soon as they were essentially selling to a hobbyist's market. You can get away with charging high prices when you are selling to companies with boundless coffers. No offence to anyone here, but Amiga has been nothing but a hobbyist's machine (barring perhaps video editing) for the last ten years.
It really is impressive that these alternative Amiga solutions even exist for people to argue about incessantly, as there is no corporate need for them.

[Siggy]

No offence to anyone here, but Amiga has been nothing but a hobbyist's machine (barring perhaps video editing) for the last ten years.

I would agree - and would further say that it's been slipping out of video editing for the last 5.

The toaster, like the Amiga it was made for was a fantastic bit of kit when it came out - but it's slowly being left behind in the wake of 'bigger - faster - better - cheaper'.

I still keep one (old and tempremental though it may be) for live switching on mulitple camera shoots, and it won't be long till the price of a production board edges it out there.

Siggy.

[ruben]

The problem is the whole aproach to the hardware issue. Since Amiga has decided to create the OS and don't care about hardware, you'll never have a product that you can call "revolutionary" in the sense of the Amiga500 or attract a lot of users to the platform. Basically, the traditional hardware market is already taken by Apple, MS, Linux, Ati and Nvidia.

What is needed is a whole new platform. I know some will say the days of custom hardware are over, and I believed so some time ago as well, but talking to someone who's quite a genious in  hardware and low-level coding, I'm becoming conviced that it is possible to create a whole new platform that truly embarasses those companies that now claim to have the ultimate saying when it comes to hardware innovation.
It has to be a whole new concept that is not concerned with issues of backwards compatibility. This is not only at hardware level but also at OS level.

I have no doubt that OS4 will very interesting, but alone it will never have the capacity to be on top.
That of course doesn't mean we can't have a nice community around it (as I hope will be the case), but to rule the world a much larger scale effort would be needed at hardware/os/applications level.

[iamaboringperson]

I think that a mobo with AGPx2, no FireWire, USB 1.1 etc. simply has to at least try and compete with the latest PC mobo's offering AGPx8, 2 x LAN, RAID, USB 2.0 and the rest. Especially within the A1 price range.

it is not in direct competition, so who cares??


amigaone will probably mainly be aimed at developers anyway

[AmigaHeretic]

The problem is the whole aproach to the hardware issue. Since Amiga has decided to create the OS and don't care about hardware, you'll never have a product that you can call "revolutionary" in the sense of the Amiga500

That's why Amiga should go X86.  The next 'Revolution' Amiga is on the virge of is not making hardware, but taking the hardware that's out there and doing amazing things with it.  Things that you CAN'T accomplish running Windows or Linux on that same hardware.

Everytime Nvidia or who ever comes out with a new product, it needs to be AmigaOS that exploits that hardware beyond what even the designers imagined.  Things that would impossible with any other OS.

That what will make AmigaOS revolutionary again.  

AmigaGuy

[lempkee]

i just want to say something here.

to me amigaone is an AMIgA , pegasos aint an amiga but an standalone machine that CAN emulate amiga if needed.

but the main problem is , it lives and breeds on the AMIGA term still even if its not supposed to (pegasos) , how come? ..because its made by fellow amiga people and was actually started out as the followup os to 3.9 ...infact it was started so early that it was supposed to be OS3.2-> but for ppc , but amiga.inc didnt like that idea and dumped that... but then os4 plans came again and this time as ppc...

so there is a twist between pegasos users and amiga one users...STILL...i understand that but,
pegasos is to me stILL just an STANDALONE machine that can emulate amiga and not an amiga.

but they keep on selling it as THE NEW AMIGA and the users KEEPS on saying its an amiga, and this is what makes me mad, as it AINT and amiga.

BBrv has got many requests from amiga for the liscense buy to get os4 on pegasos but bbrv doesnt want to have that.
(read the damn interviews guys)

so where is the problem? , is it the users or is it the owner of pegasos....

anyway i like it as its now...pegasos has MOS ...a1 has OS4 , why? because it actucally seems like pegasos can make some competetion in the market (their prices are lower etc) so in the end amiaone will be lowered in price aswell.

anyway this was my opinion shared with amiga and pegasos/genesi or whatever they are called now 's opiniions mixed together (hopefully i didnt type to much wrong here)

just let there be 2 markets, amiga has a plan, so does hyperion and so does genesi (if thats their name still) , follow them and dont fable about other stuff until its proven otherwise by the ACTUAL owners of the projects.

btw a last comment is, anyone noticed how the market now is sliding a apart? , mos moving with special titles and aos4 doing the same? , ie games that wont run on os4...only MOS .. and the otherway around..., imho this is NOT a good idea for a big catalouge in the start, why? because it will confuse the mass market, how come? because pegasos owners (THe USERS) still claim pegasos is as MUCH amiga as AMIGAONE IS. , anyone understanding what i am trying to say here? .

maybe we will get thoose questions again..., ATARI ^ amiga .., i went to a store today and bought an game for my ATARI , but it doesnt work on my amiga.   (because on the box it said, screenshots from AMIGA version) .... yes this is how it was, if u have forgotten it..., well then its too longs since amiga was in a mass market etc.

(ok maybe i was abit silly there... )

cheers

[mdwh2]

lempkee wrote:
to me amigaone is an AMIgA , pegasos aint an amiga but an standalone machine that CAN emulate amiga if needed.

but the main problem is , it lives and breeds on the AMIGA term still even if its not supposed to (pegasos) , how come? ..because its made by fellow amiga people and was actually started out as the followup os to 3.9

I imagine a big factor is the fact that it's backwardly compatible with 68k Amiga software. To many, the features are more important than who has the trademark.

I mean, at the end of the day, the AmigaOne will also a standalone machine which can emulate 68k Amiga if needed. One machine is officially an Amiga, the other is a clone.

If OS4 gets released then the chances are that the two platforms will diverge in future - in which case, MorphOS will become less of an Amiga clone - perhaps a similar situation to OS/2 and Windows 95 following on from DOS/Windows.

Even now, people refer to MorphOS as "MorphOS" and not "AmigaOS". To be honest, I'm sure I see more people complaining that x (be it MorphOS, Amithlon, etc) isn't an Amiga, than people claiming it is..

[KingTutt]

The problem with going to x86 is the massive hurdles faced when trying to support every x86 combo under the sun. Hyperion are a small company and if they want to make their OS viable, then they will opt for a smaller number of mainboards to support. I agree with them on this part.

Of course if they had the corporate muscle of Sony or Microsoft, then they would have no reason to make such concessions. Having said that, I look at OS4 as a stopgap in having a more advanced solution, compared to the old classic Amiga line.

I don't see the point in discussing why OS4 won't go x86 or why it won't have custom chips? Its a moot point. Everyone knows that its money and market forces. So ask yourself this, will x86 survive indefinitely? Eventually there will be 64 bit computing, and believe me Intel are having big problems with maintaining native backwards compatibility. I think that in the next few short years, Intel and AMD and especially M$ will be facing the same kinds of problems Apple faced when going PPC, or what we are facing right now. The difference will be that Amiga by that time will be well and truly established on PPC. It can only get better from there on.