Demand for a BBS?

[Piru]

@James

I guess you're new and don't know itix.

Well, some googling would have revealed http://www.lehtoranta.net/ and doing a simple search in aminet would have showed this.

Ratios suck. Plain and simple.

[skurk]

odin wrote:
Ah, the magical days of 14k4 long distance calling and huge phonebills.

...and back in the good old analogue days, there were tappable phonelines for those of us who didn't want huge phone bills :-)

[James]

@Piru
I wasn't trying to insult Itix. Sorry if it came out this way. I stand by my opinion though. Ratios are often necessary to avoid an all-out lack of contribution. In a pefect world, we'd have more people develop nifty pieces of software like those and distribute them freely. I find that very noble indeed and wished I had half the talent of the guy to provide the community with such software.

But yknow.. I've been using computers for over 20 years now and I can't even count the number of times great softwares were abandoned before they could reach their full potential because the developers didn't have support from the community. If you make it "free", people will not contribute, except the few rare souls with an heart of gold.  An example could be this very forum. It registers 5000 users and I only see 6 people in the thank you list for donations.

Ratios don't imply that you cannot get the software, and they don't need to be high either. They simple nudge people into contributing a little to the file base. My favorite amiga BBS died in 1992 because of over-leeching.

The idea is not necessarily to restrict file access, but rather to reward people who contribute. Any other viable reward system would do I guess. It's just that ratios are a built-in part of 99% of the BBS packages.

I just want to avoid putting lots of effort into "giving" something to "the community" and end up with just another download site, especially since this is hosted on my computer.

In the end if it proves to be such a sensitive issue, I'll simply not have a file base. Then I would have a forum. So might as well do it on the web. So might as well drop the idea since we have such a great forum here.

[dandelion]

ollygd wrote:
I suppose mentally re-living the experience had me thinking about the whole ritual - modems/comms/huge phone bills etc... Im trying to pin down exactly what made it so exciting and why the internet so abruptly ended it all.

This is an interesting point, and I really think there's something in it. I remember my first evening of being a sysop. My board ran from 10pm till 7am (that's right, using my parents phone line). I'd wander downstairs after ten and quietly swap the phone cables (sorry Grandma. The line's mine now!). Back upstairs and you'd see the final light on the modem burning red..."Auto Answer". I actually got a call that night. I spent the weeks previously honing my ANSIs and I was quite proud of it all, it seemed to work well and I thought it looked good. Suddenly, a flicker of the activity lights on the modem, the hard drive whirring into action, the screen changing from the BBS rest state to the (carefully designed) log on prompt. And then the computer under the control of someone else, heaven knows who. M...A...R...S...H. That was the name of the first caller to the board. I think he was younger than me, had seen my amateurish advert on another BBS and thought he'd give me a try. I had to sit on my hands for all of 1 minute before finally breaking into "sysop chat" and giving him the chance to introduce himself (he was a friendly chap and called back often). Eventually he logged off and the BBS software returned to the waiting state. Total callers now listed as "1", auto answer light back on and waiting. I didn't sleep much that night.

So, what was it that was so exciting about those days which just doesn't seem to be captured by telnet efforts? Here are some thoughts..

a) Full screen. I've been using Syncterm (on OS X and Linux) and it's a good bit of software. But you can't get it to take over the screen. You can't "escape" and be transported into the BBS world. Okay, I know on the Amiga i could use NComm with telser or better still DCTelnet (which is excellent) - both of which provide lovely full screen.
b) The modem noises and lights!
c) Nostalgia for a time when such easy communication were still a novelty. This is probably the big one. Before the BBS my "interaction" with other Amigans was through the letters pages of Amiga Format and CU. They were where I found like-minded souls. Of course, there were kids that owned Amigas in school, but they were simply Mega Drives with keyboards to them. It was only in the magazines that I found other people doing really fun stuff with the Amigas. Then, people started calling my board, I started to call other boards, and we could interact, talk about computers, swap files (even pictures of naked women!). This was hugely exciting to a 15 year old.

Would having a dialup board recapture all of this? I imagine it would be a bit like comparing WinUAE to buying an A1200 off EBay. On the face of it they look the same, indeed, WinUAE would be FASTER. But, it never quite satiates that sense of nostalgia. It comes close, it's a useful device, but it doesn't make the heart flutter like it does when sitting in front of the real deal at 2 in the morning, feeling like you're 15.

[ollygd]

Dandelion has nailed it. You need the "pioneering" experience to make it work. Now, no-one is a communications pioneer anymore, but resurrecting a old past-time with a modern twist is pioneering in itself. Hell, my wife marches me down to Oxford St most weekends, and I dare say I have more than a little knowledge of fashion. Bell bottoms are in. Bell bottoms are out. This has been going on for decades!

I know I keep banging on aboout this but being involved in the revival of that fantastic bedroom endevour that was the BBS would work for me "emotionally". I think I could "feel it" again. I think a lot of other people could aswell. Like anything that is successful, we need to create it, package it, and sell it hard. Im up for the challenge.

Could I ask everyone: If I launched a BBS with free dialup - would you call - or would you rather have telnet? Or both? If both, would telnet detract you from dialling up? It would be great to know. I do think a great board could be made using just telnet, but I want to see as to whether a dial-up offering could enrich the experience further.

[pVC]

I don't think that ratios would work anymore. At least if we're talking about Amiga stuff here. The situation is completely different than in 1992. There simply isn't enough new stuff to upload. Or do you want board filled up with old crap? Ratios make people try to upload all kind of useless {bleep} when there isn't any proper stuff to upload. Or probably they won't bother to upload at all, they just look the files from elsewhere. And when there's something new, only one people get advantage of it and others can't ever download anything with their bad ratios

You won't get too many leechers even with no ratio nowadays. You'll be lucky if any people even sometimes download something from BBS You'd better make everything as easy as possible that you could get some users.

"Elite" times are over. Demoscene releases have kept last remaining telnet boards somehow active in last years, but now even the demoscene has got too quiet too to make any kind of real competition for uploading.

And I think that seeing the name on weektop lists are more rewarding than getting better ratio... for the people who still like to use BBS I think that keeps people uploading just as much as with ratios in current situation.

I'd say, set up the file areas, but don't make ratios.

[Ilwrath]

I know I keep banging on aboout this but being involved in the revival of that fantastic bedroom endevour that was the BBS would work for me "emotionally". I think I could "feel it" again. I think a lot of other people could aswell. Like anything that is successful, we need to create it, package it, and sell it hard. Im up for the challenge.

Absolutely.  I have spent quite a few hours trying to come up with a way to create a forum and feeling like the old BBS.  I really miss it, and I want that back.  I've got spare equipment and bandwidth I would have killed for back in the day.  

But, really... What made the BBS great?
Community?  Definitely!!!
Personal expression?  Surely helped...
Pioneering spirit?  Possibly...

So the real question becomes, how do you capture these things?  

I'm probably going to get lynched for this, but essentially, at the heart of this current effort is Web 2.0.  Yes, I *HATE* that horrible buzzword, but the essential idea in there is a lot like the modern take on our old BBS.  It's to create a personally-shapeable 2-way communication medium based on the average technology of the day.  

It's an interesting idea, but I think the implementations are flawed.  It all seems to end up with a billion blogs that just form cliques of fake admiration feedback for each other.  All wrapped up inside a clumsy web-browser interface.  Bleh!!

Could I ask everyone: If I launched a BBS with free dialup - would you call - or would you rather have telnet? Or both?

Probably neither?  Heck, I don't even have a way to hook up a modem to my newest workstation.  (no serial port/no legacy PCI available)  Telnet is possible, but really, that's a rather unwieldy interface for this day in age.  Plus, there are so many poor and incomplete ANSI implementations that doing anything interesting is nigh on impossible, anyhow.  

I don't have the answers, but speaking from personal experience, going back to the old technology hasn't been personally fulfilling for anything more than a quick chuckle about the old days.  

And, in all honesty, to create a new instance of the old BBS experience, you need a diverse community.  That community is highly unlikely to put up with the problems caused by antique technology.

[ollygd]

@Illwrath

Cheers for the input. Very interesting. I must admit I know nothing about "Web 2" although I am aware of the buzzword (as you say!) From the sound of it, it's certainly not lighting my fire, although I'll google it tonight and see what its all about.

I totally hear you with regards to bandwidth and equipment. I would have murdered for an external CDROM from my A500, then I could have had a good file area! Right now, I'm sitting on an ADSL 2+ connection with 24mb down and 2mb up. Huge - and it costs me peanuts!

I guess we don't have a lot of options then. We either have web browsers or ANSI.

Its funny, technically I should be feeling the same about this website, and in many ways, i am! Its not quite there though. No hissing modems. No real-time typing. You know what - just 10 minutes ago I was checking out the remenants of the exec-pc bbs. (telnet://bbs.execpc.com) They were the largest board in the world at one time. Now the whole thing is on a stock pc in the CEO's basement with free access! Its nice to look around becuase there is some interesting content left. I feel that if someone was manning it a little more actively I would visit regularly. I do enjoy the clunky old ANSI. You are right, current audiences would require seamless trouble free technology, but maybe that is not our audience. I wonder how many like minded people there are out there. We could just as easily be having this conversation on a Wildcat 4.0 BBS!

[Ilwrath]

I guess we don't have a lot of options then. We either have web browsers or ANSI.

Roll your own?  Wouldn't be hard to mock-up a totally new client.  What would make it a compelling experience, though?  Most of the successful new clients have used piracy as their compelling feature, though.  That probably isn't what we're going for.  

What WOULD be the compelling key?  Again, that is the question....

[ollygd]

Well, I'll have a good think. I just have to nip to the shops right now, but ill be back on later!  :-)

[persia]

Do they even make modems anymore?  I threw the last one I had out about six years ago.  I really don't see the point even of a telnet one.  You want chat and files?  Get Drupal.

[Ilwrath]

Do they even make modems anymore?

I don't think so....  Was kinda my point, too.  ;-)

You want chat and files? Get Drupal.

Hmm... I hadn't heard of that before.  After a bit of Googling, it kinda looks like a CMS crossed with a blog.  All GPL, so you can kinda build it in whatever direction you need.  Pretty cool tool.  Not exactly in the spirit of a BBS, but an interesting find.  Thanks!

[adolescent]

I think there is demand for an oldschool BBS.  But, I'd prefer an Amiga BBS.  If you don't want to use your Amiga, then just run it from an Amiga emulator.  Still much better than running some crappy Wildcat, PCB, etc.

[guru-666]

totally, you should run on Amiga... thats the magic. Amiga sux on the WWW, but the BBS, that it can do.

ratios are silly.  why?  It's just gonna be us chickens anyway.  Downloading will be for fun, you chat and MAYBE you end up sharing a file....


god speed

[arkanoid]

a BBS gets my vote. practically speaking, it's not needed today but then still using an Amiga today is not "needed". 99.9% of us only use our Amigas for fun. it's all about the retro experience and BBSes briing back more of the memories. :crazy:

I agree, ratios suck too. i guess they were needed back in the day to help gather files. but any sysop today can spend a few moments finding the files he wants on the net. also, it should run on a real amiga for authenticity. it just wouldnt be the same being served by a PC.  :-(  

[pVC]

Yeah run it on Amiga Amiga's most recent BBS software, Fame, is free nowadays. Or you could use AmiExpress or DayDream etc...