Amiga Platform

[CodeSmith]

Thanks :-)

I felt the need to give the guy some warning, before he wandered into some flamefest and decided we're all nuts  :-D

[xeron]

I felt the need to give the guy some warning, before he wandered into some flamefest and decided we're all nuts  :-D

I don't know, I think "we're all nuts" is probably a fair assessment :-D

[NewRevolution]

(And suddenly I feel like Frodo inside Mordor) :-D

Before I write some more, If I click 'post new thread', will a new msg come under 'Amiga Platforms'? Or do I have to click 'Reply' for that to happend?

Katchung! I'm away for an hour and I can spend an hour reading replys when I get back! I like it - it's healthy!

Alright..... where to start  (in no particular order) ;-)

: : mikeymike : :

In the end; no one wants to use a system that cannot be used with other systems.

* That's a very broad term. Care to elaborate? *

I'll try. I guess a lot of what I am thinking of is done on the application side. A word processor can read documents from Mac, MS Office, Lotus etc. When AOL develops their messenger, it can be implemented on a Amiga OS. When applications are developed, they should not have to redesign the whole program to make it wotk on Amiga OS. Amiga OS must be open (enough)  to allow other organization develop applications that can be run on different platforms with minor modifications.

I don't think users should have to learn everything there is to learn about a platform (...) It really gets my back up when I've told the same person for the fiftieth time how to find the Control Panel on Win9x and they still have to ask.

Ah - but why do you think the user had to be told 15 times? Besides that it might be u explaining badly... nah just kidding :-D but seriously, why couldn't the user learn it the second or the third time? Some people are less computer litterate than others. But could it have been the design of the system? Could Microsoft have designed it in a way that would make it easier to find the control panel?

We have to remember that what is so obvious for us, might not be obvious at all for someone else. Even if they are used to computers.

When I was mentioning the learning curve - I agree. Users are not to become gurus in the OS.  But the time it takes them to approach the system for the very first time and perform a given task, should be drastically reduced after two or three tries.
Now that most users are used to windows based OS's, they should quite quickly get used to the GUI. When microsoft went from Win 3.11 to Win 95, they conducted a pretty big usability test to come up with the Win 95 design. An interesting article about the test, can be found HERE and it's worth while reading if you are planning to develop a new OS / GUI for Amiga.

Right, who was next? Ah, yeah - entering the dragons cave! :-D

Does anybody remember the 80s and two companies called IBM and Microsoft? For a very loooong time, they absolutely REFUSED to work "together". As the history goes, we the user population, started demanding. In the 70s and partly the 80s, the programmers told the customers how the applications should be designed. Today, WE tell the designers and programmers how we want it to work.
I cannot remember who, but there has been (and probably still is) feuds between graphic card producers.

What I'm getting at, is that if Mr. Bill Buck and Mr. Bill McEwen (hey - at least the got ONE thing in common) are going to follow the road they are heading, they will run Amiga down the gutter... again.  I guess Amiga Inc. sits with the ace by having  some of the intellectual property rights. MorphOS should make their system compatible with AmigaOne. It will only strengthen their market share and support - but Amiga Inc. must not charge redicules royalties from MorphOS (I think that is how it works?)

Personaly I hope they can join forces. Bring the best from MorphOS and AmigaOne (OS4) together and build something that will blow standard PC's away!

If they keep the battle up, I think AROS might walk away as a winner!

My personal opinion is that there are no WORKAROUNDs. If a chip has a bug or a "minor defect" FIX IT. Don't build a system on something that might crash. There are plenty of developers that want to create SW for OS4 - but if a faulty chip makes creates more work.........

Thanks guys for all the imput. Guess I better start some research.
Hmm.. how many here is actually from Down Under? I keep seeing signs of it all the time  8-)

[mikeymike]

Re: app compatibility

That depends entirely on how badly written the app is, from a porting point of view.

When I was mentioning the learning curve - I agree. Users are not to become gurus in the OS.

Agreed.  Basically if they how to do everything to accomplish what they need to do, that's great.

Your bit about who tells who how something should work has actually changed very little.  People who don't know how to program (myself included) don't have a clue how hard something is to implement, and whether it's even worth implementing because of what it might do to the flexibility of the platform.

Your bit about MorphOS - I tend to steer clear of all discussion regarding MorphOS, primarily because I know nothing about it, but I'd guess that MorphOS advocates would disagree with you.

AROS won't win because it's an entirely different architecture, unless something really twisted happens.  But then, AROS wasn't intended to "win".

About what you said regarding new users - I agree to a very limited extent that non-computer-literates simply aren't going to be able to grab things so well, but I still think I'm right.  Some Non-computer-literates believe they can get away with being so damn ignorant, so they will.  Hence the business of someone I know not knowing by now how to locate the Control Panel without prompting.  It's not rocket science.  He knows how to launch all the apps he needs, also located in the start menu, and it's just as many steps, and he needs to locate the control panel often enough, so he should know.

I know also from personal experience that some people simply aren't going to 'get it' with computers even if they tried for the rest of their lives, and I cut them some slack.

The same person I was talking about regarding the control panel "couldn't learn email" until it became a relatively "trendy" thing to know.  Then, miraculously, the person picked it up straight away! Funny that!  I've seen that more times than I like to remember.

[NewRevolution]

(...) People who don't know how to program (myself included) don't have a clue how hard something is to implement, and whether it's even worth implementing because of what it might do to the flexibility of the platform.

Exactly - that's when they go to the negotiation table. The stakeholders normally doesn't care HOW technology is implemeted, as long as they get what they want. And if that is not possible, they may compromise  functionality for perfomance or vica versa.

Whenever I try to do something on a Mac OS - I always struggle a little bit. It's new to me and a bit different from Windows. If I was going to use a Amiga OS - I bet I would have the same problems.

But still, all three are a bit similar. So it wouldn't take me long to get into it.
If we are to reach new user groups, they must not be daunted by the new Amiga OS. It's always a bit scary to try something new - and we can't rely on the Hard Core amiga users forever.

But then again, what will the new Amiga platform be used for? Multimedia boxes? TV set top boxes? If MorpOS or Amiga Inc. are targeting their user groups, I guess it wouldn't matter too much for new "inexperienced" users.

[falemagn]

AROS won't win because it's an entirely different architecture, unless something really twisted happens. But then, AROS wasn't intended to "win".

Sorry? Care to elaborate?

[mikeymike]

@ falemagn

Wasn't AROS for a "just for the sake of it" project?  I might not be remembering my conversation with the main co-ordinator of the project a few years back very well, but I could have sworn it was talked along those lines.  I fully admit to the possibility that I could be wrong, and/or the goals of the project have changed since then :-)

[bloodline]

AROS won't win because it's an entirely different architecture, unless something really twisted happens. But then, AROS wasn't intended to "win".

Not sure what you mean by enirely different architecture... AROS is an AmigaOS 3.1 Clone which is portable accross 68, PPC and x86 (and hopfully more in future)...

But I do agree that AROS was not set up with the intention to win. It is an effort to give the community a Free AmigaOS clone to run on any hardware they choose

[mikeymike]

@ bloodline

That was what I thought as well, that is as well as "to see if it could be done reasonably".

[falemagn]

mikeymike wrote:
@ falemagn

Wasn't AROS for a "just for the sake of it" project?  I might not be remembering my conversation with the main co-ordinator of the project a few years back very well, but I could have sworn it was talked along those lines.  I fully admit to the possibility that I could be wrong, and/or the goals of the project have changed since then :-)

If AROS were a "for the sake of it" project you'd not see me working on it, even if just in my spare time. Aaron may have his view on it (but don't let yourself be tricked by "politically correct" words... get what I mean?), but most of the people involved in the project have pretty much other opinions on the matter, myself included.

[mikeymike]

So what's your plan then?  To see AROS become the primary Amiga-like platform, but on x86?

I'm not going to go any further than I have, as I'm going into my own opinion on the matter, which I'm not particularly interested in hearing :-)

[falemagn]

mikeymike wrote:
So what's your plan then?  To see AROS become the primary Amiga-like platform, but on x86?

The plan is to complete AROS (as complete as an OS can be) and make it appealing to people. If it will become people's first choice, it's, well, their choice, we just work on what we think is right, which however doesn't mean that we work on it just for the sake of it.

[bloodline]

falemagn wrote:

mikeymike wrote:
So what's your plan then?  To see AROS become the primary Amiga-like platform, but on x86?

The plan is to complete AROS (as complete as an OS can be) and make it appealing to people. If it will become people's first choice, it's, well, their choice, we just work on what we think is right, which however doesn't mean that we work on it just for the sake of it.

I is important to remember that the AROS dev  team work very very hard to make AROS. It is our hope that we can give people a viable choice, which is available to them to run on any hardware they choose.

Well feel it's important to have an AmigaOS clone that is not governed by the comercial or political motives of one or several companies, but instead by the needs and desires of the Amiga community.

If you also feel this way, then AROS is there for you.

[Psy]

NewRevolution
What I'm getting at, is that if Mr. Bill Buck and Mr. Bill McEwen (hey - at least the got ONE thing in common) are going to follow the road they are heading, they will run Amiga down the gutter... again. I guess Amiga Inc. sits with the ace by having some of the intellectual property rights. MorphOS should make their system compatible with AmigaOne. It will only strengthen their market share and support - but Amiga Inc. must not charge redicules royalties from MorphOS (I think that is how it works?)

Well there is more to this soap opera as there is different game plans.

See Genesi (Pegasos) game plan is hardware they'll sell to anyone even people that don't care about the Amiga and the hardware sales will subsidize MorphOS.  Genesi probably wouldn't even mind Amiga OS 4 on their hardware.  Yet this means Genesi has little incentive to port MorphOS

The Amiga Inc/Eyetech/Hyperion is a alliance with Amiga Inc at the top with each having their own agenda and intrests.

Amiga Inc game plan is Amiga DE a run anywhere Amiga virtual environment that will be implemented into the Amiga OS later on.  So programs for Amiga DE can run on any Amiga DE system.

Hyperion has the right to devlop Amiga OS4 so besides being in the alliance they have no reason not to port it to other hardware but since Eyetech is in the alliance this complicates things.

Eyetech is the hardware end of this alliance.  They have delivered hardware yet wait for Hyperion to deliver the OS.  Yet Eyetech has a competition on the horizon  from the Pegasos 2 with what could be better hardware and better prices.  Eyetech has nothing to gain yet alot to lose with the porting of OS 4 to other hardware

So you now you have Amiga users divided with people buying or planing to buy Eyetechs Amiga Ones just for the Amiga OS 4 (since that is the only thing the Amiga One got going for it) yet this is the thorn in the community since if Pegasos 2 lives up to claims and OS 4 gets ported that lobs the ball at the Amiga Ones court to sink or swim.   Some think Amiga One needs to be protected since it carriers the Amiga name and Pegasos don't.

[mikeymike]

@ bloodline

There are always politics.  Opensource projects do not solve that problem, believe me.

[NewRevolution]

@ Psy

Don't we all love politics... :-P

The idea concept for the alliance might have seemed good in the begining - and then they probably signed contracts. Amiga Inc. is shipping AmigaOne with Linux. And what is that? Just another computer with Linux  - why call it AmigaOne? Amiga is the OS, not the wrapping.
And doesn't Eyetech have any other customers? Or are they betting everything on one horse? In that case, I think the alliance will be split sooner then they hope.

I still think Amiga Inc. has taken the wrong approach to OS4. I daresay that what Amiga Inc is facing today, is what M$ was facing in the 90s, when they changed from Windows 3.11 to Win95. Such a drastic change is something Amiga Inc. should be looking at. Develop a new platform, but yet have the essence of the good old workbench (3.1)

Of what I have surmised so far, both MorphOS and OS4 will be hardware dependent. That means I have to buy that exact motherboard to make it run. And if the motherboard producer is just a small timer - those boards will cost a fortune , have bad support and be difficult to get a hold on. It's not like all computer stores will start importing them :-(