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Offline SnowBord

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #89 from previous page: June 09, 2003, 02:25:42 PM »
my point stands. i know what i'm talking about.

besides.. industrial engineering and system design is all about the underlying 'systems', not the user interface.  so he is from an engineering backgound, not an HCI one.  he seems to be a consultant for 'how to build a good conceptual model of a system' - essentially DESIGN.
i studied Object Oriented Systems analysis and design, and although (these days) the book had some HCI considerations, it was mostly about analysing a set of requirements, developing a system (on paper) then handing this over to the coding team.

again, nothing to do with HCI.  and anyway, your quote is a company slogan, a marketing ploy to draw customers in if you wish.
microsoft claims each windows has no bugs and is faster etc. etc.
the PS2 had an 'EMOTION ENGINE' which was meant to make you so drawn into the game with emotion etc.
all marketing.
judging from the spiel they spout about the interface and their ahem... 'reasoning' behind it, i'd say they made that up on the spot too.

i am not saying the founder is bad at his job.. its just that his job is helping teams turn requirements and specifications into design.
 

Offline Calen

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2003, 02:29:42 PM »
I have seen these screens before and i was mighty impressed then as i am now with them but there isnt much in it that reminds me of the Amiga GUI, how about a cross breed of the latest OS4 shots and yours? that be something to see :-)
 

Offline SnowBord

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #91 on: June 09, 2003, 02:42:28 PM »
1. is not cool, it is creating a more elegant and 'un-chunky' super nintendo cartridge eject style windows 3.1 humungous bordered buttons.  the fact that when you hover over it the border appears is ANOTHER GOOD HCI feature - DIRECT FEEDBACK.  go read an HCI book.

2. The theory being you can get access to your most frequently used commands... hence do stuff quicker.
The goal is to increase the learnability of the package by new users by hiding a zillion potentially confusing options.  Again, increasing learnability is a HCI plus.

3. I understand the picture resizing, but personally have had no bug experiences.  You can make the picture fullsized by pressing the button that appears on top of it.. no big deal.  This feature can be annoying for some, but for some it may not.  Personal preference I guess.

4.  No idea what's going on here.  Personally I do dislike most of Word's 'friendliness', and I am sure I am not alone here.  This is more of an application-specific function than a general GUI trait.

But the point is, I am talking about the GUI mainly... and quite frankly Office GUI wise is genrally great.  The application functionality is a completely different point.  I am purely talking about the GUI experience.

I am sure you're glowing with delight reading the site's obviously biased view.  I am NOT pro MS... I just respect the GUI efforts they have made.  This is NOTHING to do with the crashability, features etc. of the OS or APPS, just about GUI performance.
 

Offline xeron

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #92 on: June 09, 2003, 02:55:15 PM »
Quote

SnowBord wrote:
1. DIRECT FEEDBACK.  go read an HCI book.


I know what direct feedback is, I still think this is not a good example of it.

Quote

2. The theory being you can get access to your most frequently used commands...


Again, I am aware of the reasons behind it and the motivations for implementing it. I'm saying that the actual implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

Quote

I am sure you're glowing with delight reading the site's obviously biased view.


Once again you just show that you havent even been to the site! The site has a "Hall of Shame" and a "Hall of Fame". Microsoft also get quite a few entries in the "Hall of Fame" for GOOD user interface techniques. Also, good and bad examples are given for MacOS and a couple of Unix ones.

Anyway, this is more or less of topic for the thread (which was, I believe, future AmigaOS GUI's), and I doubt we'll ever agree on what makes a "good" user interface, so lets just agree to disagree.

(Incidentally, I think Office's interface is vastly superior to OpenOffice).
Playstation Network ID: xeron6
 

Offline teo

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #93 on: June 09, 2003, 02:58:43 PM »
@Tickly

Yes ive seen thode examples before, and there are many many more examples of bad application gui designs. But that is it, they are looking at *applications*, we are trying to focus on the underlying toolkit used to display those applications. Nothing will stop coders making bad ui decisions, and thank god some of the MS teams that do the gui's for the apps are not resonsible for the gui for the OS. At least coders should be given the proper tools for creating good interfaces. As much as amiga lovers hate to admit it, windows IS far ahead in term of gui layout. You can pick at the irrelevant crap specific apps they have screwed up but the fact still remains that the underlying gui toolkit has firmly kicked aos's but over the years and we are still tryingt o catch up. Hence our suggestions.

ps, I welcomed the idea of borderless buttons, they say (in your quote) it just common sense to have borders, do they give any reasoning? I find the borders irritating, add clutter and are completely uneeded. And its not just microsoft doing it, look at adobe's latest offerings, etc etc. If its such a bad idea why has osx and linux adopted it? Dont put to much faith in things just because they bash MS.

Back on topic, anyone got any opinions on gestures??? Id like to see them supported by the os, so each app does not have to code its own implementation (causing inconsistent performance and operation)

As far as the window buttons go, i figure a preferences app could be created that simply lets you put which ever gadgets on the windows, and select what happens when you click, double click drag, right click, right double click, right drag them. Also goes without saying that you should be able to specify what happens when you do the clicks on different parts of the windows as well, like title bar, borders etc. And key modifiers of course. This way, the default could still be the classic system, but easily updatable to better operations.
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #94 on: June 09, 2003, 03:09:58 PM »
Snowbord, I remember looking at that hall of shame for user interfaces in the past, and agreeing with practically every one. Until you have even bothered to look at the site, please don't presume to criticise it!

XP has improved the user interface greatly, although you still get the "Okay/Cancel" problem for "Yes/No" dialogs, etc. At least they fixed the start button so you can slam the mouse into the lower left corner to access it, good for Fitt's Law.
 

Offline SnowBord

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #95 on: June 09, 2003, 03:10:14 PM »
Calen:

Where did you get the atavar?  Have you got a bigger version of it?? its hilarious!  :-D

Oh and incidentally at university they preach at us NOT to take info from web-sites.  If I cite web-stes, I will fail any coursework.  Only academic papers.
I don't trust them (Isys) and consider their biased facts as mere points of view.

I can't access the site.. but am sure I am not missing anything...  They can claim the moon is cuboid and say they are accredited, and thus it is true.
 

Offline NewRevolution

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #96 on: June 09, 2003, 03:13:35 PM »
I went to the site, and it didn't work! In any case, that's just a few guys "expert" opinion.

We should learn from the titans. Learn from their success factors and their mistakes. Research the web for articles on usability testing regarding OS's.

Then make som mock ups and test their functionality.  Have other users test it - and not just the Amiga community. Hardcore amiga fans will hate a new contemporary look - they will feel as a part of Amiga dies. Let it be so - we can't live in the past, we have to move on. And that is, as I have mentioned before, to be creative, think new, think different.

How can a GUI be designed to make it usable?
Can the OS support different levels of knowledge? (e.g. a built in function that sets the "difficulty"  on menu options according to if you are a novice user or an advanced user)
Does the GUI support 1,2 or 3 mouse button actions? How does the windows layer themselves?
And the list goes on!

Hm... maybe we should start a thread that lists and discusses areas that will improve a future GUI?

.                               .
. : : nEw revOluTion : : .
 

Offline Calen

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #97 on: June 09, 2003, 03:27:06 PM »
@SnowBord

I do yeah, measuring around H:450 W:338,  easier to see also, pm your addy if you want it and i will send it on.
 

Offline SnowBord

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #98 on: June 09, 2003, 03:27:46 PM »
And here's an interesting little bit of news..

Quote

Hi,
 
SnowBord (edit - I am a wanted man in many states for my HCI skills) wrote:
> theres a glaring omission in my opinion, and thats to group all the save /
> use / cancel etc buttons in requesters TOGETHER, say in the middle of the
> window.
>
> Otherwise, the user has to hop too far from button to button, which is
> rediculous, if you ask me!
 
Interesting thought. I'll forward that idea to the team.
Regards,
--
   Thomas Frieden
   Senior Developer, Hyperion Entertainment


Makes you wonder indeedy if they have any HCI professionals even consulting them...
 

Offline KPK

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #99 on: June 09, 2003, 03:54:41 PM »
What about a task-menu instead of taskbars and startmenus..

Top Left Corner
Boing Ball when click displays a task menu
O
I want to...
 Run a command...
 Read my email...
 Browse the webb...
 Play the game...
 Connect to...
 Launch....
 Adjust Preferences...
 Perform maintenance...
 Turn off the computer...
 Logout...

Obviously when any of these are clicked the phrase continues with the menus like this...

O
I want to...
  Adjust preferences...
    For screenmode.

or

O
I want to...
  Launch...
    Wordperfect.

or maybe

O
I want to...
  Create...
    A Wordperfect document...
      From the template...
        CV.
       
or

O
I want to...
 Play the game...
   Defender of the Crown.

or

O
I want to...
 perform maintenaice...
   On filesystem

or

O
I want to...
 adjust preferences
   for harddisk partitions.

or

O
I want to...
  Connect to...
    A Telnet host.

and so on...

Ofcourse the task names might not be similar to the application name..

I want to..
 Run a command.

Would obviously open a shell or a single line shell window and

I want to...
 perform maintenance
   on filesystems

Would either open the HDToolbox or a defragger or similar...

I know this might not work in all languages since the way sentences are built might not always be in the order of the menus. There is a setting to shift between...  "Human language like" and "object order" in this menu.

The difference being

O
I want to..
 Adjust preferences
   for screenmodes.

turning into

O
 Preferences
   Screenmode


This way you literally are telling the computer what you want to do by building a sentence from a tree menu..  This menu could even be implemented as voice commands when/if that's gets common.

Spelling the word "I want to" into the mic will open the menu letting you continue with one of the options shown.

This new approach to a "Start menu" is simply just a little commoditiy and can ofcourse be removed from WBstartup for experienced users thinking things like this is for newbies.

This Boing ball (customize it to be any icon) is taking up very little of the screen and will let anything currently in the GUI remain..

You can also have Shutting down applications or a menu like...

I want to..
  Show...
     ...list of running apps...

Amiga Installer needs a few commands added to be able to add things to this launch app.

Of course it's fully customizable via a prefs interface and a "windows like" guide...

Imagine the guide first page:

title--- Add a task to the task menu...

What is most similar with what you want to do:

Launch
Draw
Compose
Create
Read
button [add your own method]

 

Offline Meldon

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #100 on: June 09, 2003, 04:35:54 PM »
@SnowBord

On point 1:

Just about the only thing that tells you that there is a button in Windows is that you know the general location for it. With a quick glance, it is impossible to differ between buttons and ordinary text/imagery.

Sure, it is a kind of direct feedback, but the only feedback you get is a confirmation that the mouse pointer is over the button in question. And that can easily be accomplished by a slight change of texture or color to the button.
If clutter is to be reduced, it is better to create discrete buttons that still look like buttons.

Finally, we live in a physical world and should be governed cognitively by that world. Does your keyboard buttons appear as buttons only when you have your fingers poised over them?

Oh, and to make things clearer, I do have studies of HCI and cognitive science in my CV. :-)
Regards,
  David \\"Meldon\\" Burström
 

Offline Johan Samuelsson

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #101 on: June 09, 2003, 07:47:01 PM »
OK... seems like most guys dislikes the screenshots sent out by Hyperion so far. Why not make a poll on which default theme we would like to see shipped with OS4, right here on amiga.org and forward the results to Hyperion? That way we could show them what we, the users, would like the default GUI to look like.

The poll could look something like this;

Which default GUI would you want to see in OS4?

1. "Official" Hyperion GUI.
2. SimoAmi GUI.
3. XXXX.
4. XXXX.

Maybe we could include links to the mockups too.
.\\\\ Spot / Up Rough Soundsystem //.
check it ---> http://www.uprough.net
 

Offline porneL

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Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #102 on: June 09, 2003, 08:17:10 PM »
totally windows directory tree. yuck! i hate those.

shell is science fiction - patterned and proportional font. as hardcore shell user i cant handle it :)

looks nice, but its space inefficent (bottom bar of windows especially)
 

Offline alx

Re: Future AmigaOS GUI
« Reply #103 on: June 09, 2003, 08:20:54 PM »
Quote
seems like most guys dislikes the screenshots sent out by Hyperion so far


I certainly wouldn't go that far - most people on the original news thread seemed to like it.

Even assuming that everyone did hate it, then I don't think such a poll would do any good.  Hyperion simply don't have the time to do the changes nessecery.  The thing is, many of the things in SimoAmi's concept (Screen bar holding applets,  explorer-type shell etc) would require a re-write of parts of intuition and workbench, but at the end of the day the main focus of OS4 is to migrate to PPC.  An overhaul of WB will come later.  They only thing they could probably change is the colours - new icons and gadgets would take time.  As B00tDisk said:

Quote
Get the damned OS up, running, and stable on the many varied PPC platforms first. Hell's Bells, if it looks like 1.3 but runs stably, then so be it.


And remember that no-one's favourite GUI is going to be the same as anyone else's; there will always be compromise.  At least the new intuition is flexible enough to impose your own personality on it.

Offline porneL

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animated v.
« Reply #104 on: June 09, 2003, 08:29:10 PM »
Screen/window chooser as cycle gadget - LOVELY.

jumping mouse pointer sux.
animated elements could become annoying after few hours.