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Author Topic: Imagine, how things could have been...  (Read 6770 times)

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Offline bloodlineTopic starter

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2003, 12:34:04 PM »
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Matt_H wrote:
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Imagine, how things could have been...


No. Let's not. It makes me want to cry.  :cry:

But seriously, that deal probably would have made the 68k the mainstream chip. Therefore, it's logical to assume that the product line would have been expanded, and we'd probably have 68090s by now.

Amiga Format ran a news article once about theoretical speeds of an 060. They went into the 200MHz+ zone with refined manufacturing. There's a lot of technological potential left in 68k, just not financial.


Technologically the 68K and the 286 are from the era (with in reason!?!?), so one can safely assume that if the x86 can be pushed to the Athlon and the P4... there is no technical reason why the 68k can't be pushed in the same way.

I'm somewhat surpprised there has been less interest in 68K development.. History has shown that CISC/RISC hybrids (060,Pentium,Athlon) are generally more scalable, versitile  and compatible than their RISC cousins (PPC,Itanic...)

Still it's a shame about the Alpha  :-x

Offline iamaboringperson

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2003, 11:56:06 PM »
just having a 68000 wouldnt necessarily make the machine as a whole equal to the mac/lisa/amiga/atariST/etc...

imagine if they did that - but had no custom chips - still used an MS-DOS type thing, and still had all the interupts and crap(quite possible), its still quite likely that the wouldnt have an automaticly configuring machine

the 640K limit would be gone! that would be good

it would of been interesting to see

but the amiga & mac(and many others) still had advantages over the ibm-pc other than the CPU
so perhaps in terms of sales and support and marketing and popularity - i dont really think it would of changed that much
 

Offline bloodlineTopic starter

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2003, 12:16:42 AM »
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iamaboringperson wrote:
just having a 68000 wouldnt necessarily make the machine as a whole equal to the mac/lisa/amiga/atariST/etc...

imagine if they did that - but had no custom chips - still used an MS-DOS type thing, and still had all the interupts and crap(quite possible), its still quite likely that the wouldnt have an automaticly configuring machine

the 640K limit would be gone! that would be good

it would of been interesting to see

but the amiga & mac(and many others) still had advantages over the ibm-pc other than the CPU
so perhaps in terms of sales and support and marketing and popularity - i dont really think it would of changed that much


Indeed I agree, PC's may well have still dominated, but the CPU market would be totally different, and probably we wouldn't have such great CPU's now...(Nescesity being the Monther of invention)

One thought though... If the IBM PC had used the 68k, then the Amiga/Mac/ST, could all have run "PC" software in a Virtual machine "Dos Box"... that would have shaken up the market a great deal, I think.

Offline Dr_Righteous

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2003, 12:20:02 AM »
The odd thing about it all is it's the fact that 68k processors were the better processors that caused this mess in the first place. It was/is a price issue. x86 was/is cheap by comparison. It's why so few home pc owners use MIPS or even Alpha chips today.

Better means higher price. The best solution at the lowest cost will always win and makes the standard.

Amiga was a game machine when business machines ruled. Business machines became the standard for those that took work home. Amigas were the best graphics machines at the time, thus their popularity among gamers and video editors.

The reasons we love the machines are the reasons it faded out!

The day someone can produce a machine with the advantages the Amiga had at the time, at a cost comparable or less than PCs, will be the day the tide turns... Because NOW the home user dominates the market.
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Offline iamaboringperson

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2003, 12:22:09 AM »
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One thought though... If the IBM PC had used the 68k, then the Amiga/Mac/ST, could all have run "PC" software in a Virtual machine "Dos Box"... that would have shaken up the market a great deal, I think.
hmm.. interesting thought. if they could all run each others software, they might of eventually 'merged' - with the only differences being the custom chips, keyboard, & OS, they would be less differentiated in the eyes of the customer perhaps
more interchangable
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2003, 01:05:14 AM »
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bloodline wrote:
It's no secret that From a technical stand point IBM's choice of the 8086 for their "brand new" Personal Computer back in the early 80's was a shock to almost everyone.

All other manuafactures were looking at the 68K as the CPU of choice, simply because it was a better chip. IBM, contract with intel to supply 8086s very cheaply, apparently had a heavy bearing on the CPU choice.

But, I wonder what would have happened if IBM had chosen the 68k....  :-o


Just some thoughts to get the ball rolling:

Motorola would not have had the ruthlessness of Intel, and desire to improved the Chip. Right now we would all be using 100Mhz 68040s...
IBM would not have gained such a strangle hold on the market as there were plenty of other, better machines avaiable which, with a little poking, were quite compatible... :-D

IBM would require a second supplier built into the contract e.g.. AMD would be given this contract.

A 2.2 Ghz 68K compatible CPU would be very nice product. I don't think Motorola has the ticker to complete with AMD, let alone Intel Corp.

One to deal with the IBM/Microsoft factor e.g. MS-DOS/OS-2Warp/Windows9X/NT/2K/XP for 'super 68k platforms'.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2003, 01:30:38 AM »
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bloodline wrote:

It appears Motorola were not fussy about who they gave licences to... so I don't expect there would have been the same sort of clone wars the Intel has had to face.
(SNIP)
Motorola on the other hand seen to have been happy to licence the technology, thus there would be more regulations on the technology, and less "push", I certainly don't think the PPC would have ssen the light of day...
...

Note that, one has to factor in AMD co-founder's Jerry Sanders's drive to be number 1 CPU manufacture e.g. AMD would license 68K ISA from Motorola and rev up the Mhz (i.e. the first CPU manufacture to break the 1Ghz at volume production). They’ll probably throw in million of transistors to make this happen.

IBM is currently throwing million of transistors (~55 million) with their PPC 970, just like the real world X86.

Just look at AMD MIPS's Mhz speed, Intel StrongARM's Mhz speed and compared it to Motrola’s StrongARM's Mhz speed. AMD and Intel's aggressive corporate culture was also applied for these CPU families.  

Note that Intel was not against obtaining a license for alternative ISAs e.g. Strong-Arm.  

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The dominant chip now would be the Alpha...

Not with Alpha's cost. The old DEC doesn't have the focus for the average citizen.

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Offline Tomas

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2003, 01:31:11 AM »
Imagine how things would have been if IBM didnt add that perfect windows emulator to os/2.....

Then win3.x would have had none developers... and probably windows wouldnt have had this monopoly today.

This was indeed the most stupid act they made.. Caused both os/2 to die, and m$ to get this gigantic evil monopoly
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2003, 01:46:39 AM »
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Imagine how things would have been if IBM didnt add that perfect windows emulator to os/2.....

It wasn’t a classic emulator btw...

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Then win3.x would have had none developers...

It's the other way around since Windows 3.11 runs on top PC/MS-DOS. Running legacy software on early OS/2 is a hustle, unlike Windows 95.

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and probably windows wouldnt have had this monopoly today.

You are forgetting MS’s aggressive corporate culture.
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Offline jeffimix

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2003, 03:25:48 PM »
IBM using 68K? WINe on Amiga baby! Yeah!
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Offline Atheist

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2003, 04:10:27 PM »
Ok, now here's fanaticism for you.

How useful is ms-dos 6.22 (or win3.11) on a 3.06 GHz P4 vs. ADos1.3 on a 68060 3GHz with 256K data, 256 K instruction set cache, and MMU and the FULL FPU library in the CPU????

Is it even a contest?

Loud roaring maniacal laughter from me!! Hahahaha!!

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Offline mikeymike

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2003, 04:42:31 PM »
Atheist, when you have to make comparisons like that, it's time to give up and go home :-)
 

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2003, 04:55:39 PM »
If it was possible to cool an 060 with something like liquid-nitrogen, what would be the theoretical maximum clock speed achieveable?
 

Offline bloodlineTopic starter

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2003, 05:03:05 PM »
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mdma wrote:
If it was possible to cool an 060 with something like liquid-nitrogen, what would be the theoretical maximum clock speed achieveable?


About 80Mhz :-D

-EDIT- You'd probably need liquid Helium (Chemistry/Physics joke) to cool it down enough.

I think the 060 was at it's limit at 80Mhz though, as you then get cross talk, and delays between the gates which cause the whole thing to lock up. I would need longer pipelines, out of order scheduling, more advanced branch prediction, register renaming and a massive register set coupled with a nice big L1 cache (Basily all the tricks squeezed into the Athlon) to get it to go any faster...

Offline Dan

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2003, 02:00:53 AM »
It would have been 68k vs ARM in the home pc arena, and Ahlpa would have beaten Sun Sparc in the server/workstation part of the market. In the offies it would of course been Microsoft Windows XP for Z80 :lol:
Or in a perfect world IBM would have choosen CP/M over MS-DOS as they were close to doing
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Offline Dr_Righteous

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Re: Imagine, how things could have been...
« Reply #29 from previous page: June 05, 2003, 06:43:33 AM »
@bloodline

It makes me wonder what would happen if AMD replaced the x86 emulation with 68k emulation on the Athlon. I bet it'd use a hell of alot less transistors, allowing even faster speeds!  :-o

@Dan

I bet there'd be a hell of alot less bloat if XP had to run on a Z80!
- Doc

A4000D, A3640 OC-36.3MHz, custom tower, Mediator A4000D. Diamond Banshee 16M, Indivision AGA 4000, GVP HC+8.

Mac Mini 1.5GHz, that might run MorphOS someday, when the fools who own it come to the realization that 30 minutes just isn\'t enough time to play with it enough to decide whether or not you like it enough to cough up $200.

 - Someone please design SOME kind of DIY accelerator for the A4000. :D -