Accurate reporting? Yeah right!!

[X-ray]

(ltstanfo you will love this)

Another fine example of the media not knowing what the hell they are talking about. Is there no research done at all before they print this garbage?

Click

I've seen more accurate facts on CSI  :lol:

[Karlos]

For those of us that are not well versed in ballistics, perhaps you could expand on that "in the know" guffaw at the article.

To me, it looks like a round of live ammunition from a firearm of some description.

If I were to find something like it, what should I do? I would assume not repeatedly smacking it with a six inch nail in any small indentation I find on the base whilst looking at the head from the other side would be a start ;-)

[X-ray]

@ Karlos

Well, I will first point out all the bollox, then I will tell you a little about ammunition.
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The .22 calibre short round bullet was found at the entrance

There is no such thing as a short round bullet. Anyway the thing they found was a cartridge. The bullet is the projectile that is loaded in that cartridge. It is not illegal to have bullets (unless they are hollowpoints). You can order a bag of bullets online legally (as I have done). It is live cartridges that are illegal without a firearms certificate.

The bullet, of Swiss origin, was still in its brass casing, complete with enough gunpowder for it to fire itself.

Okay here they change their tune and say the bullet was in a case, but the rest is crap. Firstly there is no way to determine how much powder is in the cartridge just by looking at it. It may not even have powder in it. It may not even have primer compound. And it definitely can't fire itself.

Mr Khan said that if it had been struck hard enough or exposed to heat it could have gone off.

Not the paper's fault, this is Khan's lack of knowledge. Firstly the .22 short is a rimfire cartridge and therefore has to be struck on the rim at the back before it will discharge. Secondly, tests have been done to determine how much heat is required to set these off, and it is quite a bit. For example it won't go off if left in a hot car or on a hot pavement.  Even if it does goes off (let's say somebody set it off by means of a blowtorch) there is little chance for injury. The item most likely to cause injury is the case, not the bullet. This has been proven in house fires where ammunition has been involved.

It was live, primed and active," he said.

Not the paper's fault, Kahn's fault. He had no way of knowing whether it was a live cartridge or not. It is not a centerfire cartridge so he cannot comment on whether it is primed or not. Even if it was a centerfire cartridge with an intact primer cup, there is no way of telling whether there is primer compound within the cup, without opening the cartridge or discharging it (firing it).

Ammunition of this kind would ordinarily be used in a small handgun or pistol, and both can be owned legally under licence.

Bollox. Those handguns are banned. You can't license those. But the legality of handguns isn't a factor because those cartridges can be fired in .22 rifles, which are legal to own (even in semi-automatic) with a license (a firearms certificate). I have fired all lengths of .22 cartridges in the same rifle.

[Karlos]

Regardless of the technical issues obvious to someone such as yourself, is it a proper for someone like me to assume that were I to find what appears to be an unfired round of ammunition to treat it as potentially dangerous?

I'm not so ignorant as to believe just manually handling it normally would be a risk but I imagine a curious person (read bored kid) might make a serious mistake trying to see what is inside?

[X-ray]

@ Karlos

Here is a picture of a .38 Special and a .22 Long Rifle cartridge. The .22 short in the story will be the same calibre but a shorter case. It is therefore less 'powerful.'



Don't worry about what sort of bullet is loaded in that cartridge, generally they will either be lead like the .38 seen there or they will be lead but with a jacket (like what you see in the movies). The .22 bullet in a short or long rifle case is never jacketed. That copper look you see there is a 'wash' that can be scraped off even with your fingernail.

At the back of the cartridges there is a difference between centerfire and rimfire:



These are live cartridges. The .38 has a proper central primer cup and the .22 has no obvious primer, but there is primer compound inside the rim. The location of the primer in each case is arrowed. In the .22 the primer compound will be in the rim all the way around the base. Those imprints on the bases of the cartridges identify the manufacturer and have nothing to do with primers.

Here you can see where the firing fin of the gun in each case has hit the base of the cartridge in order to discharge it (arrowed):



And here is a longitudinal section through those cases to show the difference between the two primers. The main capacity of the case is for the gunpowder (not shown):



It is very unlikely that you can set off a cartridge by dropping it on the ground. However I wouldn't do it. If you find a cartridge like that, it will be impossible to manually pull the bullet out with your fingers. They are crimped into the case and have to be fired out or extracted with a tool. These cartridges are safe to handle, and even if you were able to discharge one by hitting the back with a nail, it wouldn't go very far because it wouldn't be in a barrel where it could be propelled for any length of time by the gases of combustion.

So what do you do if you find one of those?

1) Get a clear plastic bag and pick it up like a dog turd.
2) Don't touch the case, because you might leave fingerprints on there.
3) Don't touch the cartridge with any tools and avoid unnecessary handling. Forensic tests can match that cartridge to a gun if it has been chambered and then unchambered.
4) That item could be evidence in a crime and you definitely don't want to add your prints or make extra impressions on that.
5) When the cartridge is in the bag, call the police to collect it (saves you a trip).

If you find a firearm: well that is a whole different kettle of fish...

[Karlos]

@X-Ray

I understand the difference between a bullet and an unfired cartridge. This seems to be a semantic issue, really. A bullet was found (albeit still in the cartridge).

I can see that the story is factually ropey but the main point seemed to be about the fact the thing was found, not exactly what it was.

The bullet, of Swiss origin, was still in its brass casing, complete with enough gunpowder for it to fire itself.

Okay here they change their tune and say the bullet was in a case, but the rest is crap. Firstly there is no way to determine how much powder is in the cartridge just by looking at it. It may not even have powder in it. It may not even have primer compound. And it definitely can't fire itself.

I can only assume this is mostly down to a bad use of english (and lack of specific knowledge), but I assume it meant the cartridge could conceivably detonate if tampered with. Due to the lack of a barrel and the associated gas powered acceleration of the actual bullet, I have no real idea how dangerous this would be, but at very close range I can only assume it is potentially quite dangerous. I dpn't think they meant to imply it could literally "fire itself" :-D

As for the contents, upon finding a seemingly complete round of ammunition, is there any reason to assume it isn't actually what it appears to be? I would imagine that live ammunintion vastly outnumbers any other kind and therefore, if you find something like that in an unexpected place (ie not in a cabinet full of someone's private munitions collection) it's statistically a lot more likely to be live than not, right?

Mr Khan said that if it had been struck hard enough or exposed to heat it could have gone off.

Not the paper's fault, this is Khan's lack of knowledge. Firstly the .22 short is a rimfire cartridge and therefore has to be struck on the rim at the back before it will discharge. Secondly, tests have been done to determine how much heat is required to set these off, and it is quite a bit. For example it won't go off if left in a hot car or on a hot pavement.  Even if it does goes off (let's say somebody set it off by means of a blowtorch) there is little chance for injury. The item most likely to cause injury is the case, not the bullet. This has been proven in house fires where ammunition has been involved.

Surely the guy was just expressing his concern. Like I said, if it were thoughtlessly tampered with, surely it could be dangerous.

If I found a seemmingly unused round of ammunition here, I'd be pretty concerned too. Now, as this guy is reported to be a member of a gun club you could say he ought to know more about munitions than he appears to.

It was live, primed and active," he said.

Not the paper's fault, Kahn's fault. He had no way of knowing whether it was a live cartridge or not. It is not a centerfire cartridge so he cannot comment on whether it is primed or not. Even if it was a centerfire cartridge with an intact primer cup, there is no way of telling whether there is primer compound within the cup, without opening the cartridge or discharging it (firing it).

Ok, but as I say, is there a valid reason to assume it isn't a complete round? Statistically, what is the likelyhood of it being something... I don't know... ornamental?

The last issue is, what was it doing lying around in the doorway?

[X-ray]

"...I can see that the story is factually ropey..."
----------------------------------------------------

It isn't factually ropey, it is downright misleading and devoid of any research. There is a definite difference between a bullet and a cartridge, and it isn't just semantics. It is a critical element in the story. It is the difference between going free and perhaps having 5 years in jail. It also is the difference between having forensic experts at the scene for trajectory analysis and having a cop show up to collect a cartridge.
The legality of weapons and the nature of the item found, and the apparent danger it poses to somebody who handles it, is not something that is subject to dramatic license. You don't have the liberty of semantics when discussing arms and ammunition.
Certainly they offered several pieces of information as fact, when they clearly aren't.

The bottom line is:

1) The cartridge cannot go off by itself.
2) It cannot go off because of environmental heat.
3) It cannot go off if handled with fingers.
4) It is very unlikely to go off if dropped.
5) If it did go off without being chambered, the damage would be minimal. Mythbusters did a test with the larger .22 long rifle cartridges, held in a fuse clip and those cases had very little penetration. The .22 short will have even less.

As to how it got there, it probably dropped out of somebody's bag or clothing.
It's no excuse, the person who dropped that is liable. I've come home from a day at the range and found a cartridge in my bag before. Trouble was, it wasn't a brand of cartridge that I was firing. It was ejected from a weapon in an adjacent bay when the shooter was clearing a jam and the round just happened to go into an outside pouch on a shoulder bag I had. But it became my problem after I discovered it.
You do get all manner of replicas, blanks and deactivated ammunition. These are more likely to be seen than a real round lying in a doorway. Live ammunition is more difficult for criminals to get than illegal handguns.
Of course if you find a heap of cartridges in a crack den then those are probably not going to be replicas  ;-)

You're right about handling it as if it is real: that is the safest way, but that doesn't mean you can make statements about its composition to the press, or that the press can entertain guesswork on the composiion and 'lethality' of the round.

[CannonFodder]

[X-ray]

 :-?

I don't get that, Cannon Fodder

[CannonFodder]

The thread reminded me of the Mr Logic cartoon strip in Viz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Logic

[X-ray]

Armed Robber: No nonsense. Just give me all your money.

Mr Logic: I shall commence by pointing out to you that my demeanour is not one which could be described as nonsensical. Consequently I can attest you have no cause to reprimand me on your first point. On to your second point: Bearing in mind the potentially lethal situation in which I find myself, to wit: your presence in conjunction with the presumably loaded firearm which is presently levelled at my cranium, I will comply with your request comprehensively, albeit reluctantly. Here, twenty-seven pence.
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 :lol:

[Karlos]

Armed Robber: Twenty-seven pence? F*** off. There's more than that in the till.

Mr Logic: Indeed, undoubtedly so. However your request was for *my* money. The currency in the till belongs to a third party and is therefore not "my money". However, if you are still desirous of said money I would suggest that you re-phrase your original statement to recognise and incorporate this important distinction.

[metalman]

X-ray wrote:
Click

I've seen more accurate facts on CSI  :lol:

"To get hold of one of these is not easy. You have to go through a scrutinised search, you need a licence and you have to belong to a club."

Here you just need to go to the sporting goods section at Walmart ...

[Wilse]

CannonFodder wrote:

:roflmao:

[X-ray]

@ Wilse

I reckon the papers could use some help from Mr Logic instead of spreading bollox most of the time.
That's made me want to find old Viz comics now. I can see that dude being a real favourite  :-)