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Offline TheMagicMTopic starter

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Can there be room for another system?
« on: September 11, 2006, 01:05:32 AM »
Please nothing Amiga related.  Think outside the box and take the tinfoil hats off.

cue the harp and the clouds, birds chirping..
back in the day of computing..when it was fun (C=64/128/Amiga/Atari) there was always breakthrough technology or something that came out and stirred up alot of commotion.  

Nowadays it seems as though its just ho-hum.  Nothing really catches my eye and it seems as though the IT world is obsessed with speed/number crunching.  Will we have to wait 10+ years for another groundbreaking achievement in computing?  What is the next big thing that should be accomplished?  What are we looking for?  Drop the 'fan favorite' cpu talk (like sticking to PPC).  x86 isnt bad.  So what we're really after is a good operating system?
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Offline billchase

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Re: Can there be room for another system?
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2006, 01:21:27 AM »
The IT field had evolved so fast, that computers are at a
point where there is not much left they can't do.  Maybe self
programming computers?  A.I.?  Despite what has been accomplished,
I believe the computer industry has become so commercial that
computers are nothing more than an appliance tailored toward
the common consumer.  I missed the days when computers were
still marketed toward the ones who actually knew how to use
them, the ones who were not afraid to find out what made them
tick.  Not exactly sure how to say it, hopefully you understand
what I mean.

C Snyder
 

Offline irishmike

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Re: Can there be room for another system?
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2006, 01:46:56 AM »
My feeling is that innovation is nothing more than stealing an idea from an open-source project and mainly I too feel that the computer industry is making more or less an appliance for the masses.

I just feel there is no real innovation going on any more... it is like the major players are comfortable with the way things are and so lets add bells and whistles to our already bloated OS.  So I would like to see a new OS evolve.

What is a keen example of what I am talking about is a new feature of Windows (Vista) which looks keenly like an idea that Sun Microsystems had out on their open-source project called Looking Glass.   The Windows implementation of "flip" and "flip 3D" looks exactly like Looking Glass.   Plus they seemingly took the look and feel of OS X (mac) for their vista "look and feel".   Even Apple is guilty on some level of this lack of innovation, and I have always thought of Apple as innovators, and then the PC world implements it later (examples include but are not limited to: USB, USB 2.0, Firewire (IEEE 1394), SATA, etc.) which were adopted after Apple released machines with these features.   And now, the OS X look and feel is kind of a rip off of FreeBSD features and ports of X windows features like WindowMaker's Dock and others.  Though they did change it up quite a bit!

But the innovation that drives "the development" of the modern Operating system includes keeping a very old UNIX environment running in the background.  It would be cool to come up with a totally new OS that was independent of UNIX... however, I do love the UNIX underpinnings and FreeBSD in particular is rock solid and tried and true.  The only difference left between any OS seems to be either Windows (VAX environment with NTFS filing system) or *NIX based.  Then it can be sub-divided further into front end GUI differences... the GUI is all that separates one *NIX from another.   We are (unfortunately) forced to choose either Windows (which I will never use where I don't have to) or a *NIX environment.  Then it is a debate whether we like the propritory MacOS X (Aqua) interface or whether we are X-Windows purists.

I know I have said this before, but I think the world could use a new AmigaOS that competes directly with MacOS X and Windows.   What I don't get is why Amiga, Inc or Hyperion don't simply write their own GUI on top of a *NIX base (just the way Apple did) and make it therefore able to run on any platform that the kernel would support?   This just makes sense.  And While I understand that even Apple had many more resources in programming to get this done, Aqua was still developed by one team!

Heck, I would be glad to work on such a project if they'd let us help in the development.   That was indeed one thing Apple did that was cool, they let their developer network folks help develop for the platform so that there were programs running on Aqua when it launched!  It could be done here too.

Anyhow, my opinion is well stated in many places on this forum, so I am going to try not to restate it here.

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Offline cgutjahr

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Re: Can there be room for another system?
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2006, 02:25:52 AM »
@irishmike:

I don't get it: first you complain that everybody and his dog keeps Unix compatability and basically leave you only the choice of the GUI system used - and one paragaph later you demand that AmigaOS should be turned into a GUI for a Unix system?

As far as I'm concerned, turning AmigaOS into just another Unix GUI would have way more drawbacks than benefits. The GUI never was AmigaOS' strong point anyway, there are only three somewhat remarkable things about its GUI anyway (close button at the top left, screen title bar + menues, depth gadget).

In contrast to that, there are a lot of nice things you'd loose: backwards compatability, a sensible directory structure, extreme responsiveness to name just a few.
 

Offline weirdami

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the next big thing
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2006, 02:32:31 AM »
@TheMagicM

Someone's going to come up with a way to take brains from dead people and make them into the most awesomest computer system ever. One brand will be called Amigas, and will use, exclusively, brains from dead female illegal border crossers from mexico to the USA. This source will be the cheapest because in the mean time, such illegal crossings will have increased so much that there will be so many more dead mexicans in the desert and the company that uses the brains will be the company that also dabbles in desert clean up.
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Offline GreggBz

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Re: the next big thing
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2006, 02:55:40 AM »
The Amiga had such a tight integration between it's OS and it's hardware. I was really the first of a few modern home computer operating systems. The next real innovation/evolution in my mind was networking. Amiga OS had none and was a single user OS, which have all but disappeared these days. A new, from the ground up multi-user OS would be neat, but not groundbreaking.

It's interesting that the Internet came along and networking became so vital that we had to engineer things around multi user systems such as VMS and UNIX.

When home computers were in their infancy things were much more exciting for everyone involved! Now, we've kind of grown up, seen so much more and it's not so exciting anymore.

We've hit a sort of plateau on so many consumer technologies.
Everyone is doing it, and when that happens you get lots of noise and less innovation. So, the real question is, what comes after this information age? I think we need to imagine a change from somewhere outside of "networking" or "cpu power" or "better graphics" to realize what the technological future really holds. I'm ready for the real space age myself.

Some alternative operating systems:
Microsoft Singularity
SkyOS
 

Offline dovegrace

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Re: the next big thing
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2006, 03:12:08 AM »
Quote

weirdami wrote:
This source will be the cheapest because in the mean time, such illegal crossings will have increased so much that there will be so many more dead mexicans in the desert and the company that uses the brains will be the company that also dabbles in desert clean up.


Wouldn't this be seen as a conflict of interest?  More dead people=more brains=more raw material=more product=(theoretically) more profit? :-D

As for the original topic, the only thing I can think of that would impress ME would be a true 3D GUI manipulated by, for example, something similar to Nintendo's old Power Glove...

... although for the life of me, I couldn't think of any practical USE for such a GUI.  It'd be interesting nonetheless.

Now if we're talking about something completely revolutionary, I'd like to see someone perfect a computer I can wear without looking like a 'tard.  Say, something about the size of a cellphone or PDA, but with a Bluetooth HUD built into a pair of sunglasses.


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Offline irishmike

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Re: Can there be room for another system?
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2006, 03:58:48 AM »
@Cgutjahr

Yes I have stated that the future of Amiga OS is to build a gui that is "AmigaOS like" ontop of UNIX many times.   I would dearly love to see a departure from that model if it could be done in a way that is as solid as those UNIX boxes.

Since I use UNIX based OSes personally, I don't know of a way to get that kind of rock solid performance without UNIX, so it is very much a dicotomy for me.  Love of UNIX vs Love of AmigaOS.  Although (as stated in many threads) I see the future being the very same as MacOS... you have the MacOS classic which is version 7-9 and then you have the modern supported face of OS X.  The classic interface is like Macintosh Retro.  There are people who are adamant about not switching to OS X because they love their pre-OS X system... just like I feel there will be always the Amiga retro side using up to OS 3.9 and then there will be the future OS 4 on up.   So I am not "demanding" anything, just stating my opinion.
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Offline amigadave

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Re: the next big thing
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2006, 04:57:53 AM »
@weirdami,

Okay, now I know where your nickname comes from (a little too sick for me, and possibly very racist and sexist to some people).

Did I miss something by not reading the whole thread that would show me you are responding to some joke?
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline amigadave

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Re: Can there be room for another system?
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2006, 05:12:31 AM »
@irishmike,

My personal opinion is that computer hardware and certain geniuses of computer software could make what ever we want possible at this point in time.  It is just a matter of desire and combined effort and time to make just about anything possible (plus money of course).  I don't see any reason that it is impossible to have AmigaOS 3.9, or 4.0 extended and running on any hardware we want with all the faults and short-comings fixed.

It is just a matter of someone (some group of people) that decide that they want to make the time and effort to make something happen.  It is with this belief that I wish AmigaOS3.9 for 680x0 would be released to Open Source.  Who would be hurt is Classic Amiga users were allowed to work on the OS for their machines?

Who?
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Can there be room for another system?
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2006, 05:19:26 AM »
UNIX has a sound philosophy, but it's full of warts and rust.  A major update should be considered, especially where security and localization are concerned.  Unfortunately, such things are invisible to end-users and only really affect programmers.  There's not much incentive to make a better kernel/OS when you can just put more gloss and eye candy over such old designs.

Quote
Irishmike:   My feeling is that innovation is nothing more than stealing an idea from an open-source project and mainly I too feel that the computer industry is making more or less an appliance for the masses.

Concerning the "theft" of ideas, I usually see the opposite.  Just about every desktop for Linux looks and works like a Windows or Mac system.  I've tried over ten distros of Linux and about 25 OSes overall, and I've never used any one of them for more than a week.

Ironicly, the only OS I've used in the last 5 years that I found really interesting was an old copy of OS/2 (version 2.0).  It was a lot of fun to play with, but certainly not very stable or flexible.  I learned a lot of BAD design tips to avoid by using OS/2.  ;)

I agree with the "appliance for the masses."  Part of the reason why everything looks like Windows/Mac is because the alternatives are trying to appeal to the mass market.  Only power users really seek out alternatives.

Quote
Irishmike:  What is a keen example of what I am talking about is a new feature of Windows (Vista) which looks keenly like an idea that Sun Microsystems had out on their open-source project called Looking Glass. The Windows implementation of "flip" and "flip 3D" looks exactly like Looking Glass.

My feeling is that we should be looking for ways to consolidate information to reduce clutter, rather than find new, flashy ways to flip between windows.  Compare Windows Explorer to Total Commander.

Quote
Irishmike:  What I don't get is why Amiga, Inc or Hyperion don't simply write their own GUI on top of a *NIX base (just the way Apple did) and make it therefore able to run on any platform that the kernel would support?

I think it's because Hyperion seriously underestimated the improvement in graphics on hand-held systems, and were trying to make a really fast proprietary 2D solution with 3D just tacked on, like the original Amiga.  Any embedded system powerful enough to have a PPC processor needs more than that, and anything less is going to run on ARM.

Amiga Inc. was on the right track with AmigaDE.  Too bad they just didn't release anything that looked like it really was based on a next-gen platform.  Slot machines?  Come on.

I don't like Java that much, but after seeing a demo of SavaJe, it's really changed my impression of where we need to go as far as OS design is concerned.  I've seen quite a bit of that platform and what it can do.  Plus, Java programmers are plentiful.  That means a lot to companies that want to build "toy" applications for their products, like games, messaging services, etc.

Quote
GreggBZ:  We've hit a sort of plateau on so many consumer technologies.

When it comes to tools, yes.  I'd prefer only a modernization of UNIX, but a brand new programming language.  Programming, especially GUI development, needs to be made much easier.

A few years ago, I read The Mytical Man Month, and I was very surprised to hear the author say (in the 80's), that computers were basicly fast enough to do anything... it was the system architecture and team management that was the problem.  Granted, the author began his programming career in the 60's.  The longer you work on computers, the more you realize speed is not the solution.  I don't think a lot of people really understand what responsiveness means.

Quote
Dovegrace:  As for the original topic, the only thing I can think of that would impress ME would be a true 3D GUI manipulated by, for example, something similar to Nintendo's old Power Glove...

Given that a sheet of paper is still one of the most powerful and frequently used tools used by man, I'm not sure a virtual 3D environment is the solution.  2D is still the best for data representation.  There's a reason why the virtual reality craze died out in the early 90's.

I see most "VR" controllers as short-lived trends.  Tablet screens, like on TabletPCs and the NintendoDS, have a huge amount of potential.  If early PDA's hadn't been so proprietary and sluggish, they would have survived the onslaught of other trendy gadgets, like cell phones, and evolved into a much more mature platform.  I'm disappointed that laptop computers are still so popular.

BTW, the Power Glove was developed by Abrams/Gentile Entertainment.
 

Offline TheMagicMTopic starter

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Re: the next big thing
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2006, 05:54:13 AM »
too bad SkyOS isnt a free download.. I'll keep watching it and maybe buy it later on.
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Offline recidivist

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Re: Can there be room for another system?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2006, 10:45:50 AM »
 Any new computing solution is going to surprise us all,I think.

 Historically every new tchnology has many people starting new companies or divisions to produce  their version of the new wonder. At one time  the U.S. had over a hundred automobile makers,then a couple dozen,then only a handful. Likewise home  computers began with tinkerers then dozens of companies ,each promoting similar but incompatible hardware/software. Several early platforms of great technical merit fell through poor marketing or management  blunders.

 Ultimately,every product category,from automobiles to clothing, seems to mature with several huge companies dominating that market for mass production with numerous specialty companies serving those who want that item/product in a special regional/low-fat/high-performance/customized/personalized/organic/ or in some other way different version.Think boutique  or niche markets

 Seldom does the mass market item embody the characteristics  valued by enthusiasts.

 I can't see how the Amiga or AmigaOS will ever be other than a niche market especially in view of the decisions by every company that has held the commercial rights.All the wounds to Amiga have been self-inflicted.It really deserves a chapter in "Out of the Jaws of Victory".
 

Offline Plaz

Re: the next big thing
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2006, 01:08:46 PM »
@weirdami

Quote
Someone's going to come up with a way to take brains from dead people and make them into the most


That's definitly one of the most twisted ideals I've heard. You've been watching the "Spocks Brain" episode of Star Trek again? Scientifically a good idea. But wether harvested or artificially grown, a biological computer may come with unwanted emotional bagage. Even dumb plants are said to have emotions. "Sorry I can't get ont the net today, my computer's in a bad mood." :lol:

BTW, the last cool thing I've run across is vmware.

Plaz
 

Offline dovegrace

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Re: Can there be room for another system?
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2006, 01:45:36 PM »
Quote

Given that a sheet of paper is still one of the most powerful and frequently used tools used by man, I'm not sure a virtual 3D environment is the solution.  2D is still the best for data representation.  There's a reason why the virtual reality craze died out in the early 90's.


As I said, it'd be hard to find a practical use for the 3D environment.  Still be interesting to see how someone would pull it off.

As for VR dying out, I don't think it's dead completely.  Rather, it became a sort of spiritual predecessor to the "virtual online worlds" that seem to be popular these days. Can't remember the name offhand, but it reminded me of "Better Than Life" from Red Dwarf...

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