My idea, My Dream

[irishmike]

Hello Everyone:

I am inspired by the recent thread regarding the Phoenix Motherboard for the A1000 (see this link.) and by discussion of making retro hardware replacements using newer technologies.

I must state that before I begin, I have *some* electronics background at component level from when I repaired VCRs.  I do not have the ability to do something like I am about to suggest however, but would gladly be involved if someone wants to tackle the project in helping prototyping.  That being said, this is, in fact, a dream of mine :-)

I would LOVE to see a new A4000 Motherboard that fit into a ATX SFF case (even though there would need to be a way to support Zorro Cards and that makes this likely to need to fit into a standard Mini Tower configuration most likely).  This would be a board that you could simply plug your A4000 ROMs into and it would be a retro machine made with current hardware.  This idea comes from looking into replacing my octal Amplifier chip on my A4000D mainboard and finding that the chip exists but only in a flatpack surface mount package, the DIP is no longer made.  

So, the question is:  If we eliminate the processor board and daughterboard and put those onto this new board... making it say an 060 processor (which you can actually find in old Macs in abundance) or taking the Crusoe approach and writing a "buffer" that translates the calls into the language of the processor of your choice (yes this is emulation, but in hardware rather than software -- so much, much faster).   And making the support from there on in smaller than the old formfactor.  Is there any interest in doing this?   If so, I am interested in exploring it a bit more.   At this time, I am not thinking of any kind of mass production at all, just to prove the concept and then see what the market interest level would be.  I need a lot of help to prototype it though!

The advantages are obvious in that we could use newer RAM technologies and newer processors, but the machine would be a core Amiga 4000 retro style.

Anyhow, this is my grand idea and I am hoping people with more engineering skills than I are interested in this.  It is a way to preserve the retro part and if done correctly, could support the NEW OS of your choice as well just by tuning the "emulation" circuit.

It would be so cool.  And I know the hardware emulation is possible because I have seen this done.  (Don't remember who did it, but they basically programmed an entire Mac SE into a dongle).

Anyhow, this is really just in my head right now, if you have interest in making my idea into a reality... chime on in or PM me if you like.

I am sure it will be a technical challenge!  Consider yourselves warned :-)

[motorollin]

The problem you will have wil be replicating the custom chips from the Amiga motherboard. The schematics are long gone, and you wouldn't be able to see them even if they existed.

Dennis is doing basically what you have said but with the A500. It has taken him a long time to replicate the functionality of the custom chips. It may be worth talking to him if this is really something you want to do.

--
moto

[InTheSand]

A nice dream!

irishmike wrote:
...an 060 processor (which you can actually find in old Macs in abundance)

But I thought Apple went PPC after the '040 and never produced any machines with '060s in them as standard?

It'd be great if there was a great cheap source of 68060s, but I'm not sure how likely this is...

In any case, a replacement board made of new hardware would be great... Especially if it could have a few tweaks like a native chunky (or RTG?) graphics mode, built-in scandoubler, etc!

 - Ali

[amigadave]

With all new computers starting to use dual core CPUs and the success of Dennis' Minimig and the great progress made with WinUAE, I wonder if it would be possible to create Amiga compatible hardware and software without the need for the old custom chips?

Use all the power of the second core to emulate the custom chips, while the first core emulates the 680x0 CPU.

Alternatively, with the info gained by Dennis' Minimig project, replace the custom chips with FGPAs and put them on a  PCIE board and modify WinUAE, or EUAE to take advantage of them.

Amiga is far from dead and the possibilities are endless.  I am looking forward to great progress over the next 10 to 20 years as the interest in retro computing is just now starting to gain momentum.

@ IntheSand,  Yes, I think you are correct, Apple never installed any 68060 CPUs in their machines.

[irishmike]

@motorollin

Yep the custom chips would be challenging as you have to figure out what the inputs and outputs do at the machine level. :-)

But like I stated, it is quite a technical challenge.

Can you PM with more info on contacting Dennis?  I would appreciate it.

@intheSand

Hey Ali.  Thanks for the words of encouragement.

[Piru]

making it say an 060 processor (which you can actually find in old Macs in abundance)

There we no Macs with 060 CPU made, ever. You can't find 060s from Macs, at all.

Anyway, the thing you're looking for is WinUAE. That's the closest you can get.

[irishmike]

@piru

No sir, WinUAE is NOT what I am looking for.   I am looking for a complete retro computer in hardware but built with newer components.  And if ANY emulation is to be done, it will be in very fast hardware ROMs instead of by software.

Plus, WinUAE requires Windows and that junk I will not run.  E-UAE has disapointed me and so I am seeking a full hardware solution.  That is precisely why I stated everything the way I stated it.

Of course, I do respect that this is your opinion :-)

[Piru]

@irishmike

Right, I understand all that. And IMO you will not see such hardware solution, ever, and thus the closest you can get is WinUAE.

[irishmike]

@piru

Once again, I can not buy that as I am planning to do the engineering on the hardware, though not by myself :-)   WinUAE is not the answer!

[iamaboringperson]

And if ANY emulation is to be done, it will be in very fast hardware ROMs instead of by software.

What on earth does that mean?

[irishmike]

@imaboring person

It means the emulation would be in the hardware and NOT the software if indeed  the project will include emulation, it would be my preference that there is no emulation necessary, but because we will have to divine what the custom chips do, there would be hardware emulation of those chips.

Hope that helps clear up my statement for you :-)

[Piru]

@irishmike

What's wrong with software emulation? It's 1000x cheaper to produce, at least. And faster/price aswell.

[odin]

'It is a way to preserve the retro part and if done correctly, could support the NEW OS of your choice as well just by tuning the "emulation" circuit.'

Which new OSes are you thinking of here? OS4/MOS/AROS?

[irishmike]

@odin

Greetings:

Well, the idea being that it would run any modern OS you would like... as long as the OS in question is supported by the chosen processor or could be likewise ran through a form of emulation.

@piru

I personally think that software emulation is often too slow, plus if I am using the emulator, my system resources are normally tied up with the emulator, and as I explained, I would not be able to use WinUAE because I will not use Windows, if there was that level emulator on the Macintosh platform (including the whole GUI siutation) I might use the emulator.  

I prefer the original hardware anyhow, and my goal is to build good replacements with modern as well as retro functionality.   Hardware is always faster than software and in the case of the dongle I mentioned, runs rings around any software emulator for the Mac SE.  In fact, the guy's emulator dongle ran faster than the original machine did... he had to slow it down a little to maintain compatibility.

Besides, even in WinUAE I can not say I want it to be a A4000 with video toaster running a Warp Engine.  The hardware emulation could be made to emulate all of this, not that we are thinking of this level, but it is not as limited as the current emulators.  When they get these things emulated and cut down on System resource usage, then I will be more inclined to look at software emulation as the solution.  

If you are happy with the current emulator, by all means use it, but I am looking for a better solution :-)

[TheMagicM]

..if anything.. at least we'll have dreams. lol