More Chipram

[Flashlab]

How I wish I was a coder and electronics engineer. ...

That would have made this topic a lot shorter!

[Piru]

@leirbag28

and I also believe its true....and WinUAE is proof of it.

Of course it is true. But you claimed AmigaOS would detect the 8MB automagically ("so your telling me the OS itself does not scan more than 2mb ChipRAM? It does!.........and according to HazyDave it does!"). It does not, WinUAE has special code for the >2MB area. If the code wasn't there, AmigaOS would only see 2MB chip memory.

one can even create a WinUAE tiny Hardware box if need be to emulate the ChipRAM the way WinUAE does without any strain on the REAL Amiga's CPU.

Naturally. But this box will be 100% isolated from the real Amiga. It will not add any chip memory to the Amiga.

Is this not possible?  think it is.

Not in a way you envision it.

Maybe that is what someone should do. Create a WinUAE card that plugs into Parralel or serial or wherever it needs to go and Do ChipRAM some Justice!

It still does not give the Amiga any more chip memory. The Amiga custom chips can not access the system thru serial or parallel port.

Naturally if you forget the real amiga altogether and just replace your A500 innards with some X86 Windows box running WinUAE... then we're getting somewhere. But that is WinUAE, software emulation solution.

There is no way to get >2MB chip memory in a real Amiga.

[KThunder]

i have  questions here that are related but i dont want to start more flaming. so please... be good

what happens exactly if you just add more ram to the address area normally used by chipram. what is it detected as? fast slow or chip?

we dont really care if the custom chips can see the ram or not do we? regardless of how it does it winuae gives the emulated environment 8megs of chip ram, the emulated chips cant really use it other than to give programs use of it.

were in the memory map is the additional 6megs of chip under winuae? it is contiguous to aga chip ram right?

in other words if the cpu can see it is that enough for programs and os? what in the custom chips needs to know that "chip ram" is being used, and are there other ways of doing that. the custom chips dont manage chip ram right? the just share access to it.

[LoadWB]

Piru wrote:

There is no way to get >2MB chip memory in a real Amiga.

:horse:

I'm sure you could code a program that rewrites the Workbench banner to show 4x the amount of free ChipRAM.  Of course, then programs would use four times as much memory when they run.  But, I guess that's just the sacrifice you make.

[Piru]

@KThunder

what happens exactly if you just add more ram to the address area normally used by chipram. what is it detected as? fast slow or chip?

That would be 0x200000 and onwards (end of 2MB chip memory). Nothing happens at all, the memory is not detected (normally fastmem residing here is added to the system with AutoConfig(TM) ROM).

we dont really care if the custom chips can see the ram or not do we?

But we do, at least if you tag the memory as MEMF_CHIP. Such memory must be able to be used for audio, display, copper, floppy DMA etc. The MEMF_CHIP flag is there to indicate that this memory can be used with custom chips.

Regardless of how it does it winuae gives the emulated environment 8megs of chip ram, the emulated chips cant really use it other than to give programs use of it.

Not quite sure what you mean here, but WinUAE really does support this 8MB for the emulated chips.

were in the memory map is the additional 6megs of chip under winuae? it is contiguous to aga chip ram right?

Correct. It continues right after the regular chip memory (address 0x200000). Thus if >2MB is enabled, WinUAE disables any fast memory configured there. Z3 Fast is unaffected naturally since it's mapped to >24bit address.

in other words if the cpu can see it is that enough for programs and os?

It's not. AmigaOS and programs allocate chip memory to be used with the custom hardware.

what in the custom chips needs to know that "chip ram" is being used, and are there other ways of doing that.

Well, the thing is that custom chips don't care if the passed memory address actually works or not. The caller is supposed to pass valid pointer. Custom chips will just "forget" the upper bits in the passed address and use matching chip memory anyway. If you pass 0x274000 to blitter, it will use 0x074000 instead (destroying any data that is in that address in the chip memory).

There really is no way around it. You really can't have more than 2MB of chip memory in a real Amiga.

[maffoo]

Just out of interest, is there any limit on the chip RAM on an emulated Amiga? Could WinUAE have more than 8MB?

[leirbag28]

@Piru

@leirbag28
Quote:

    and I also believe its true....and WinUAE is proof of it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Of course it is true. But you claimed AmigaOS would detect the 8MB automagically ("so your telling me the OS itself does not scan more than 2mb ChipRAM? It does!.........and according to HazyDave it does!"). It does not, WinUAE has special code for the >2MB area. If the code wasn't there, AmigaOS would only see 2MB chip memory.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Piru.......Thats what I am saying! to add this very same special code that WinUAE uses for the 2MB area but to a real Amiga, either in software (Because WinUAE is software aint it?  and it works!)  or in a Special Hardware that attaches to the custom Chips that emulates WinUAE in hardware so that there is no strain or slowdown on the Amiga side.  WinUAE is doing the Work of allowing my REAL Amiga Hardrive to see the extra chipRAM as if it were native 8mb ChipRAM....I find this amazing yet simple........and I am saying this very same code can be made into a Hardware box and smacked onto or piggybacked onto the custom chips to fool it to see 8Mb ChipRAM, even if it has to be taken from FastRAM or have its own ChipRAM on the WinUAE hardware (I prefer that) I am proposing.


Quote:

    one can even create a WinUAE tiny Hardware box if need be to emulate the ChipRAM the way WinUAE does without any strain on the REAL Amiga's CPU.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Naturally. But this box will be 100% isolated from the real Amiga. It will not add any chip memory to the Amiga.
--------------------------------------------------------------


 I believe it would add more ChipRAM just as I explained above the same way WinUAE does it.

[Zac67]

leirbag28 wrote:

either in software ([...])  or in a Special Hardware that attaches to the custom Chips that emulates WinUAE in hardware so that there[...]

*ROFLMAO* This is getting ridiculous! Do you have any idea in which way hardware differs from software?? Go ahead, this is getting better and better - can't wait for the next bit!

Believing that hard beyond common sense, you should really go into theology!

[Piru]

@leirbag28

Thats what I am saying! to add this very same special code that WinUAE uses for the 2MB area but to a real Amiga, either in software

Will not work in real amiga, unless if the amiga runs UAE.

Again, you fail to understand that making the memory appear in the AmigaOS does NOT make the custom hardware support it.

(Because WinUAE is software aint it? and it works!)

It works because WinUAE emulates the hardware, and it has chips that can do 8MB chip memory. Amiga has no such chips.

or in a Special Hardware that attaches to the custom Chips that emulates WinUAE in hardware so that there is no strain or slowdown on the Amiga side.

Will not work. You can not isolate parts of WinUAE to separate chips that you can plug into Amiga motherboard. No, it does not work.

WinUAE is doing the Work of allowing my REAL Amiga Hardrive to see the extra chipRAM as if it were native 8mb ChipRAM.

No, it is not possible to interface WinUAE with real Amiga hardware.

I find this amazing yet simple.

And I find it really hilarious.

and I am saying this very same code can be made into a Hardware box and smacked onto or piggybacked onto the custom chips to fool it to see 8Mb ChipRAM, even if it has to be taken from FastRAM or have its own ChipRAM on the WinUAE hardware (I prefer that) I am proposing.

I understood the first time, and I clearly told you it is not possible to do that.

I believe it would add more ChipRAM just as I explained above the same way WinUAE does it.

You still fail to understand that WinUAE has no way to integrate to the real Amiga hardware. It's full 100% isolated Amiga running on it's own. It doesn't generate any needed hardware signals and it internally works totally different to real hardware. It's just software emulating the custom hardware functions. It does not emulate the actual hardware. Thus it is not possible to replace real hardware with this emulation.

Got it now?

[KThunder]

Zac67 wrote:


Believing that hard beyond common sense, you should really go into theology!

ok thats a bit unneccisary. he is wrong sbout an aspect of a vintage computing platform. many, many people are. i personally dont see the need for more than 2megs chip, but im not going to bash him for it.

[leirbag28]

@Zac67

Yes I do know how hardware differs from software..................so are you saying software cant be made into hardware?

Because it can be....how do you think DVD players work? standalone ones?   they are not being run from WindowsXP ya know?
They have their own little OS inside the hardware.  Thats what Im talking about!

Think of it this way.........WinUAE installed onto a Cartridge where it stays permanently.......then circuits are made around it to attach to the custom Chips............does that sound ridiculous to you?

Doesn't a melody Sound Card attach to the Amiga Hardware?  Doesn't a Full Motion Video Card attach to the CD32 giving it MPEG1 VideoCD capability?   well to make things simpler.....lets just talk about an imaginary FMV card for the CD32.......except its a WinUAE card with the software embedded into it specifically just for the ChipRAM emulation...............making sence?  it should make sence.  ....someone just has to make it and accessible in an AmigaOS kind of way, or CD32 kind of way in this case.

Seriously....think about it for a second what I am saying.............it can work...........forget all the technical stuff you know. I think what I am saying makes perfect sence to him who is willing to understand.

Dont they have E-UAE now for Amiga 68k?   well we are getting closer! imagine that on a CompactFlash (Hardware) with a Special WinUAE "necessitites" decoder.......and you start to get the idea.

[Piru]

@maffoo

Just out of interest, is there any limit on the chip RAM on an emulated Amiga? Could WinUAE have more than 8MB?

Pointers used with custom hardware are real 32bit ones, so you could in theory have ~4GB chip memory with emulation such as UAE. In practice certain AmigaOS functions interpret the bit 31 as failure indicator, thus the limit is ~2GB. However, anything > 8MB would need to be located to 32bit address space. Any well behaving app should work fine, but various apps would break.

In fact already using >=0x200000 breaks some things (apps compare against this fixed address to determine if memory is chip or fast).

[KThunder]

so the current custom chips dont fully decode the bus and will corrupt memory if it is above their limit. would a bus snoop chip that watches for accesses above the 2meg and inhibit action in the blitter et.al. prevent this?

[KThunder]

leirbag28 wrote:
forget all the technical stuff you know. I think what I am saying makes perfect sence to him who is willing to understand.

you can't forget the technical stuff if thats the reason it wont work. this is technical, and everything that has been done for the amiga over the last 10yrs is because of technical stuff.

[Piru]

@leirbag28

Because it can be....how do you think DVD players work? standalone ones? they are not being run from WindowsXP ya know?
They have their own little OS inside the hardware. Thats what Im talking about!

Aha, I think we're getting somewhere now. Actually they are much more Windows XP than Amiga hardware custom chips.

WinUAE installed onto a Cartridge where it stays permanently.then circuits are made around it to attach to the custom Chips.does that sound ridiculous to you?

Utter nonsense. Totally ridicilous.

Doesn't a melody Sound Card attach to the Amiga Hardware? Doesn't a Full Motion Video Card attach to the CD32 giving it MPEG1 VideoCD capability?

These two are using the provided, well documented interfaces. There's nothing magical about these products. They do not modify any custom chips functions inside the Amiga, nor do they add any chip memory to system.

lets just talk about an imaginary FMV card for the CD32..except its a WinUAE card with the software embedded into it specifically just for the ChipRAM emulation..making sence?

It is not making sence (or sense). It's nonsense.

it should make sence. ....someone just has to make it and accessible in an AmigaOS kind of way

It is not possible to make hardware support >2MB chip memory via software.

or CD32 kind of way in this case.

No Amiga hardware expansion slot has the required signals to replace Amiga custom chips completely. It needs to connect/replace the chips directly (or have tons of really ugly wiring).

Seriously....think about it for a second what I am saying..it can work.

It can not work.

forget all the technical stuff you know. I think what I am saying makes perfect sence to him who is willing to understand.

You are not making any sense. Your ideas do not work at all. Anyone who understands how Amiga works, understands that you are totally lost here.

Dont they have E-UAE now for Amiga 68k?

UAE has been available for Amiga since 96-97 at least. Even with 68060 it runs tens to hundreds of times slower than 7MHz A500.

well we are getting closer!

We're exactly as far away as we were in 96-97.

imagine that on a CompactFlash (Hardware) with a Special WinUAE "necessitites" decoder.and you start to get the idea.

Yeah, we're getting the idea. You're incapable of accepting that you're wrong.

[Piru]

@KThunder

would a bus snoop chip that watches for accesses above the 2meg and inhibit action in the blitter et.al. prevent this?

Can't see how it could, and even if it could, it would lack the actual blit operation that is expected to be performed.

And it's not just blitter, it's all custom hardware DMA, copper, blitter, bitplane DMA, Paula audio, floppy read/write etc etc.