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Author Topic: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...  (Read 7075 times)

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Offline Helgis75Topic starter

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The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« on: May 12, 2003, 05:52:56 PM »
What is this AC97 intergrated soundchip anyway? Is this some kind of a modern Paula-chip being great at playback with 20-bit full duplex sound, and poor when it comes to recording? Is this the kind of audio-chip..? Could somebody tell me?

Is it possible to use the AC97 for playback at 20-bit, and the SB Live for recording? Just wonder...

 :-)
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Offline gnarly

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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2003, 06:37:51 PM »
AFAIK, the AC97 is simply an audio I/O chip.

In theory, you could set up AHI to output through the AC97 and record through the SBLive! but I think the SBLive! is probably a better bet for both jobs :-)
Cheers,

Olly
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Offline Helgis75Topic starter

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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2003, 06:47:45 PM »
Quote

gnarly wrote:
AFAIK, the AC97 is simply an audio I/O chip.

In theory, you could set up AHI to output through the AC97 and record through the SBLive! but I think the SBLive! is probably a better bet for both jobs :-)


I'm sure you're right. I would expect any with AmigaOne now to tell about their audio-experiences with both AC97 and a soundcard like SB Live..:)
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Offline Floid

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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2003, 07:03:10 PM »
Maybe Intel's PDF will help?

IANAAG (I Am Not An Audio Geek), but I gather most of the love for the SBLive stems from three things- Creative Labs' "superior" construction techniques, the ability of the EMU chips to (co)process audio data, and the powerful MIDI support in those same chipsets.

Many "normal" people dislike onboard AC97 audio systems because they find them 'of poor quality' - presumably due to interference in the analog stages, whether on-board or on-chip.  This depends a lot on your particular board and chip; when I was on my EPoX 8KTA3, I had to crank my external amp far beyond normal listening levels to hear any static or hum.  A more basic problem is that, even inside Windows, it's hard to trick the single 'speaker' jack provided on most boards into acting as a proper line-level output.  These aren't really AC97 problems; they're implementation issues.  Meanwhile, SBLives have at least half-decent analog stages, and carry on the tradition of separate 'speaker' and 'line out' jacks, or at least have a simple toggle in the driver.

From there, you get into features that AC97 simply doesn't provide- *if* you have the right software/drivers, the SBLives can offload a lot of processing (for MP3 decode, effects, etc) from the main CPU.  This comes in handy for three classes of application- what I'd consider "peon" apps (the audio players that come with the card, and allow you to select 'stadium' simulation or whatnot); audio libraries- presumably DirectX can take advantage of certain 'accellerations,' and support is claimed for whatever OpenAL is on Linux - for gaming, at least, some CPU offloading would occur, though 'quality' is probably subjective; and high-end professional tools, which no-doubt give real thought to accuracy, quality, etc.  Meanwhile, MP3 decoding to an AC97 chip uses only a fraction of CPU time on any modern system, so it's not like you're totally crippled by  not using a SBLive.  (For gamers, offloading the decoding for game music does translate to a mildly increased framerate.)

MIDI support isn't a part of AC97 at all, while the SBLive has numerous highly-advanced features... none of which you'll ever touch if you don't use MIDI.  For a pro, it's no-doubt great; for playing  back an annoying tune on a Geocities page, it's.. overkill.  (A software MIDI decoder comes with Windows, and Apple seems to have relied on them exclusively? during the '90s; I have no idea what they currently use for sound.  Similar software can be wedged into Linux/*BSD.)  I have to wonder how many (gamer/consumer) SBLive owners are using the Microsoft software decoder without realizing it, whilst bragging of their card's abilities.

The big problem (fixed with the Audigy?) is that all the snazzy features came at a price- all operations on the card were handled at a fixed sampling rate of 48KHz - meaning 'rounding errors' (more like framedropping/interpolation noise?) when going to/from (and worse, to/from/to/from/to ad nauseum) the popular 44.1KHz of CD audio.  One mitigating solution has been to leave the output at 48KHz... which works fine for other SBLive users, but requires conversion when going to CD... and could show up other samplerate-conversion/'rounding' issues in things like FreeBSD's "vchans" mixing code.
 

Offline Helgis75Topic starter

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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2003, 08:00:14 PM »
Thank you, Floid:-) Then the choice is clear! The SB Live is the way to go at the moment! Luckily, i DID by the SB Live Digital 5.1!!!  :-)  :-D
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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2003, 08:51:53 PM »
I have one of the original SB-Live's with the gold plated pci edge connector and line in/outs and the SPDIF RCA daughterboard. Very nice when you use it with the kxproject ASIO drivers, and the PCI Latency patches for the VIA chipset. <5ms latency with no crackle or drop-outs in the sound.  The EMU-10k1 is a very good chip.
 

Offline tonyw

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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2003, 01:46:27 AM »
Helgis, the on-board sound has not yet been made to work under Linux (don't know about AOS4). It's probably because none of the developers has had the time or need to port a Linux driver to the on-board sound chip.

So, as you say, an SB Live! is the way to go at present.

tony
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2003, 05:40:53 AM »
AC97 Audio is pretty good by itself.  The Live! and Audigy cards have an edge because of various hardware acceleration techniques.  I thought I read once that most on-board audio chips can use between 5-15% CPU utilization, while the Live! card uses about 2-3%.  Of course, that was a few years ago.  I still prefer a dedicated sound card, especially since the Audigy's digital to analog converter is pretty amazing, and the Creative cards have a software controlled equalizer.  The built-in audio on my VIA266a motherboard is weak and tinny, my nForce2 board is too muddy.

I guess mobo manufacturers assume that if you care THAT much about audio quality, you'll just buy a dedicated card, anyway.

Too bad Win2000 wrecks it all.  Even with the latest Creative drivers I can't get rid of cracking and popping with either my VIAKT266a or nForce2 machines.  However, some games are better than others.  NASCAR Racing 4 really tortures the Augigy card and sounds pretty awful, while Unreal Tournament works like a charm.

It would be very nice indeed to hear an Audigy card on an Amiga.
 

Offline DethKnight

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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2003, 07:03:36 AM »
Quote
Too bad Win2000 wrecks it all. Even with the latest Creative drivers I can't get rid of cracking and popping with either my VIAKT266a or nForce2 machines


so its NOT just me, you get this too.
I get it on my EpoX 440-BX7+100 in Win2K Pro
far less problematic in linux, yet not completely 110% gone


my mum's machine has an AC97 onboard audio onit, it sux.
wanted; NONfunctional A3K keyboard wanted
 

Offline Elektro

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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2003, 07:11:13 AM »
"I can't get rid of cracking and popping with either my VIAKT266a or nForce2 machines."

And they said it was VIA's fault  :-P

Anyway I got some beta drivers which fixed my problems, sound had a bit of stutter and pauses and that's now gone.

I could try emailing them (10.1 MB in size), respond if interested.
#amiga.org @ irc.synirc.net
 

Offline olegil

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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2003, 07:13:11 AM »
Well, don't forget that SB Live is also using an AC97 codec, it's just got a slightly smartet host controller than what's inside most southbridge chips. AFAIK it's got a DSP like the Delfina. I have not (as of yet) seen ANY good implementations of user space modification of the running code in the DSP in Linux, but I think there's some people working on it. Windows has had drivers with this capability for ages.

Here's what will work in AmigaOS:
SB Live (good card)
SB128 (bad card compared to the above)

Unknown:
Onboard AC'97 (excactly as good or bad as an SB128, I guarantee there's no big difference between them on the digital side. And the SB128 is NOT very impressive analog-wise either)

I've been studying this quite a bit to see if there's any point in making an AC'97 card for the A1G3-SE, but since the market is like 25 motherboards and Linux still doesn't configure the VIA for AC'97 properly, I gave it up for now...
 

Offline Red_Melons

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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2003, 08:44:10 AM »
"Here's what will work in AmigaOS:
SB Live (good card)
SB128 (bad card compared to the above)"

Is the SB128 the same as the Creative Vibra 128 which Eyetech sell for the AmigaOne?
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2003, 09:22:29 AM »
Quote
AC97 Audio is pretty good by itself. The Live! and Audigy cards have an edge because of various hardware acceleration techniques. I thought I read once that most on-board audio chips can use between 5-15% CPU utilization, while the Live! card uses about 2-3%. Of course, that was a few years ago. I still prefer a dedicated sound card, especially since the Audigy's digital to analog converter is pretty amazing, and the Creative cards have a software controlled equalizer. The built-in audio on my VIA266a motherboard is weak and tinny, my nForce2 board is too muddy.

My ASUS builtin Sound Storm (MCP-T)  rivials my SbLive 5.1 DE.

For audio related benchmarks refer to
http://audio.rightmark.org/
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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2003, 11:38:52 AM »
For anyone having problems with SBLive/Audigy on VIA chipset motherboards, do the following.

Install this kxProjext Driver

then install this VIA PCI Latency Patch

then install this VIA Memory Interleave Enabler

then install this VIA 4-in-1 Drivers v4.46

You'll have no problems afterwards.  It goes without saying to reboot between each driver install. :-)
 

Offline Martyn

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Re: The Mystery Of The AC97 Sound...
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2003, 12:50:27 PM »
If anyone is interested in the CPU usage of onboard/PCI audio chips you may find this interesting:

http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html

This is just CPU usage tho', not audio quality.

Martyn.
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