What is best for video editing?

[mschulz]

Two channels at 16 bit or 4 channels at 12 bit is what the spec provides.

Yes, and that's enough for me. It would be also, most likely, enough for the one who has started the thread

In addition, instead of a camera (unless he wants a camera), a firewire bridge is at least as good a solution, and most likely cheaper and is really built for what he (and you) are doing with DV video.

True, but I do have the camera already

[iamaboringperson]

If you go the PC route, don't buy anything from Hauppauge or Pinnacle... Just my opinion, but all too often, I've bought hardware from both these companies only to find that the software is incomplete and/or buggy, with updates nowhere to be found despite hundreds of complaints in the respective forums...

Pinnacle is exactly the brand that I was thinking of getting.

There will be bugs with any software. I hope there are not too many problems.

After reading a bit about VLAB Motion and Toaster Flyer, it seems that they might be too expensive and too much trouble. One of the reasons for considering Amiga hardware was that I might be able to get good 2nd hand hardware cheap. But I might as well go for new hardware on x86.

But if you want to preserve at the utmost highest quality............get a Digital8 or MiniDV video Camera with S-Video input......it can record into the Digital Tapes and captures the best quality!

I don't want a camera.

that [ ADVC55 ?? ] is what you need. you can capture/edit even with movie maker of windows.

Some of those products look very good. But I don't want a USB device. I would prefer an internal PCI version for performance reasons.

[Tigger]

Dont buy Pinnacle, first of all they dont really exist anymore, they are a division of Avid now.   If you want a nice PC editor, wait a few weeks and get Speededit from Newtek, its  a software based editor that does everything from flash to uncompressed HD, gives you all kinds of DVEs (even more if you buy by my new DVECreator, in fact one of the upcoming updates for DVECreator converts the old Amiga wipes) and you'll feel like you have a toaster/flyer on steroids.   Get a DV bridge to bring analog video into your computers Firewire port and you'll be all set.  
   -Tig

[leirbag28]

@Tigger

Judt because something is Digital, does not mean its better....many times Analog is wayyyy better.............example.............Laser Disk (Analog) looks bettter than VCD (Digital)

Also DV is better than DVD...DVD is higher compressed.



@jose
Your method would work a step up from the one I mentioned because its Direct FIREWIRE no loss throught the DV compression.



@Iamaboringperson
YOu dont have to want a camera.......DONT look at it that way!  look at it as a Digital VCR.......dont bother with the Camera side of it..........There is NO Cheaper method than this, at this High Quality.

No matter what anyone says...PC's give the worst results on Earth at times unless you have a SUPER PCI card......and High Powered Pentium4 that is virus free and runs smooth.   The PCI cards mostly do Analog input anyway and convert to a horrible looking digital form.   If you value your Videos.....Get a Cheap DV cam....in second place I would go with the Ultra Cheap CYBERHOME DVD recorder.

Technical terms dont mean Nothing!  Results do!

I have a Few PCI and AGP Capture Cards including ATI All In Wonder Pros here............Even an old DCTV is better in some cases.

[Tigger]

leirbag28 wrote:
@Tigger

Judt because something is Digital, does not mean its better....many times Analog is wayyyy better.............example.............Laser Disk (Analog) looks bettter than VCD (Digital)

Also DV is better than DVD...DVD is higher compressed.

Thanks so much for proving my point.  If you goal is to make DVDs, then compressing first to DV and then to DVD is just adding compression artifact concatenation.  You can do it, but it in no way improves your product and in many ways can hinder it.

@jose
Your method would work a step up from the one I mentioned because its Direct FIREWIRE no loss throught the DV compression.

DV is lossy 5:1 compression, not sure why you seem to be implying otherwise.

YOu dont have to want a camera.......DONT look at it that way!  look at it as a Digital VCR.......dont bother with the Camera side of it..........There is NO Cheaper method than this, at this High Quality.

Sure there is, you are just using the DV chip to compress the analog signal to a DV stream to send it to a computer via IEEE-1394 (Firewire).   He can do that cheaper with equal or even better quality with a Firewire converter.

No matter what anyone says...PC's give the worst results on Earth at times unless you have a SUPER PCI card......and High Powered Pentium4 that is virus free and runs smooth.   The PCI cards mostly do Analog input anyway and convert to a horrible looking digital form.   If you value your Videos.....Get a Cheap DV cam....in second place I would go with the Ultra Cheap CYBERHOME DVD recorder.

Thats why all the TV and movies we watch are edited on PCs or Macs, right?   Because they give the worst results?   I edit DV on my laptop.   PCI capture cards come in all forms, but lots of them these days capture in UNCOMPRESSED LOSSLESS format, as well as DV-25 or DV-50.   Its hard to argue with someone who thinks a $75 DVD recorder does better work then PCs at video capture.   Firewire cards for a PC are basically free these days, I paid $9 including shipping for my last one.

Technical terms dont mean Nothing!  Results do!
I have a Few PCI and AGP Capture Cards including ATI All In Wonder Pros here............Even an old DCTV is better in some cases.

Technical terms mean everything, you just apparently don't understand them.  Lots of capture cards will even capture directly to DV format these days, though in reality if he wants to edit DV, a bridge, a couple hundred dollar PC will do just fine.
   -Tig

[iamaboringperson]

@leirbag28

I think you're making quite a generalization about computer cards versus DV cams and DVD recorders.



---


I think I'll probably go for one of those Canopus devices. They look like they're probably a top card for what I want. And not too expensive, too.

I need good software, though.

[leirbag28]

@Tigger


Here is why you are wrong on probably all counts that you said:


No one is talking about IMPROVING Original Footage!   I am talking about the CHEAPEST way of preserving it at the smallest possible effort required by the user and smallest cost possible with the highest results.

hmmm whats cheaper........ a Laptop with a PCI card.........or a DVD recorder standalone?


I think you get the point.   And I got an opinion for you........I HIGHLY doubt Movie Studios use PCI cards that can be purchased for $9.......Im thinking they use Much Higher end equipment and cards costing in the THousands...otherwise what you are comparing is just as good as a Video Toaster Flyer.

Macs and PC's can indeed capture excellent quality at exttremely low prices........but thats usually coming from FIREWIRE...........being transfered from some Digital source that already did the capturing!  a DV camera!  there is no loss from DV to FIreWire on the PC.........yes the DV itself has some compression...........but its so good.......that as you yourself said.......Video studios use them for Braodcast and such............heck, they even Send Badly compressed MPEG2 over the airwaves on Satellite TV.


Doing it through a PC is too much hassle and cost if you want things done legally.

for the typical guy, the route I mentioned is best and cheapest and most effort free and still looks darn awesome.

is there a way of doing it cheaper on a PC?  absolutely! Im the authority on that..........why?  because I find Pentium 4's here all the time in the Streets of New York including 160gb SATA drives, DVD burners, 512mb DDR Ram sticks, 256 SDR and DIMMS.........I find them all the time.................all free! so I know it can be done for cheap...in my case for Free!

But I would not recommend anyone buy a PC to do video if they had a Choice............a Mac G4.....maybe, if he needed to do alot..................but for transfering Video? I would first recommend a DV camera, second place would be a DVD recorder..........and 3rd would be an iMac with iMovieHD,  a PC would be last resort....and If I recommended thjat.it would have to be with a Fresh install of WindowsXP Pro, that has never been connected to the internet....or just briefly for updates.  THis keeps the machine running tops.

If the typical Computer user can get Windows to do what its supposed to.....there  would be no argument...............but PC with Windows just suck.......thats why Linux exists today, and why some of us Cherish our Amigas so much...........we are in awe of how much PC's still suck today...........or maybe I should say Windows with a PC.

Im usisng Ubuntu Linux to type this.its my Main OS since ive been fed up with PC's.  Im going INTEL Mac soon!

Have you heard the News!  Apple finally got Public Screens HAHAHAHAHA!   ridiculously late. although Linux has had it for a while in the form of workspaces.

Apple is calling theirs: MultiDesktops............tsk tsk tsk..........these companies are getting the credit for evertything Amiga invented first.

I was appalled when they first mentioned "Plug And Play"  I laughed my behind offf..........I still remember that.

Anyway, I will rejoice in the fact that I still think Amigas Multitask the most properly.

[Jule]

There has been some discussion about capturing analog to a DV camera first or using a pc card to capture it.  Before Katrina wiped out my editing studio, I was using a Toaster Flyer in a 4000 to edit my video and then transfered it to my pc to burn to DVD.  I tried both ways using a Radeon All In Wonder video card to digitize, or my VX 2000, which I then tranfered via firewire.  Using my VX definitely gave the better quality, though it was often not worth the extra step to me.  I now have a Panasonic DVD recoder I got from Walmart for abour $140 and it works great.  I record simutaneously to DVD and mini DV on my VX.  I have to say the quality is quite good and is much, much faster than trying to first transfer to PC, render, and burn.  If you are just copying your old analog tapes, get a standalone burner.  If you want to edit, there are lots of solutions, but the Toaster Flyer has virtually no render time and is very simple to learn.  Of course, you will still have to tranfer the video to pc to burn to DVD.  As far as quality goes, since we are talking of standard definition, there is really no disadvantage to the Toaster Flyer as the compression quality exceeds the broadcast quality of SD TV.  You can get the most expensive uncompressed editing system there is and it won't neccessarily look any better that the Toaster Flyer on SD.  Jule

[Tigger]

leirbag28 wrote:
@Tigger

Here is why you are wrong on probably all counts that you said:

I'm not wrong on any point, but I'll get you straightend out a bit at a time.

No one is talking about IMPROVING Original Footage!   I am talking about the CHEAPEST way of preserving it at the smallest possible effort required by the user and smallest cost possible with the highest results.

And then you went with a two step process that doesnt do much of what you are saying.

hmmm whats cheaper........ a Laptop with a PCI card.........or a DVD recorder standalone?

If he owns a desktop or a laptop, then buying the DVD Recorder standalone surely isnt the cheapest way to go.  In addition, you can make better DVDs with a computer then with a standalone recorder

I think you get the point.   And I got an opinion for you........I HIGHLY doubt Movie Studios use PCI cards that can be purchased for $9.......

If they are bringing footage in over IEEE-1394 they most surely could be using a $9 card or the ports on the motherboad if they have them (as most desktops and virtually all laptops do these days).   Its a tranfer bus, whats next in your opinion, Movie studios cant use IDE Harddrives?

Im thinking they use Much Higher end equipment and cards costing in the THousands...otherwise what you are comparing is just as good as a Video Toaster Flyer.

If its DV footage, any format, including HDV, a better card doesnt improve the footage.   The beauty of IEEE-1394 (Firewire) interface implmented for video is that a direct digital copy is sent down the wire, a very simple card allows the computer to write it to the harddrive.  In fact Digital Domain (who have 2 oscars and 3 emmys) at least used to use the exact same $9 firewire card as me, because I hooked them up with them when they needed 20 of them.  I've got a VT[4], I've got Vegas, Avid and Premiere on my PC, I have Final Cut Studio on my Mac. Was one of the leading third party guys for the Toaster/Flyer and owned the first Digital Broadcaster outside of Digital Micronics (Who later became Applied Magic).

Macs and PC's can indeed capture excellent quality at exttremely low prices........but thats usually coming from FIREWIRE...........being transfered from some Digital source that already did the capturing!  a DV camera!  

A DV bridge (or converter) does the same trick, is cheaper, and usually better then the Analog to digital inputs of a cheap DV camera as you are suggesting.  And again I find it interesting that you are suprised people use $9 firewire cards and then go into a big rant about how cool firewire is.

Doing it through a PC is too much hassle and cost if you want things done legally.

What exactly do think I was implying that was illegal?

for the typical guy, the route I mentioned is best and cheapest and most effort free and still looks darn awesome.

Buy two pieces of equipment he doesnt have instead of using his PC and buying one piece of equipment?

I would first recommend a DV camera, second place would be a DVD recorder..........

Getting it on DV camera doesnt help the issue.  Taking it to a DVD recorder is ok, but he might as well put it on his computer and make much better DVDs.

but PC with Windows just suck

Except of course you can edit video better on it, then any other system.   Including HD, for not alot of money.   They are so much faster then any Amiga thats its silly to talk as if they are the same device (ie computers) and there is so much software available that you can load a new piece every day for the rest of your life and never run out.

Apple is calling theirs: MultiDesktops............tsk tsk tsk..........these companies are getting the credit for evertything Amiga invented first.

And they are much cooler then anything even dreamed up by the Hype Twins for OS4.

Anyway, I will rejoice in the fact that I still think Amigas Multitask the most properly.

Except of course, that Windows XP (and before it NT & 2000) multitask much better then an Amiga.
    -Tig

[Tigger]

Jule wrote:
 Before Katrina wiped out my editing studio, I was using a Toaster Flyer in a 4000 to edit my video and then transfered it to my pc to burn to DVD.

Jule,

Lost track of you after your other post after Katrina.  Was going to offer you copies of RenderFX, Promix and Flyer Utilities as part of my Katrina recovery plan, if you dont already have them.  Send me a PM or post here you can get attachments on your email and I'll email them to you in the next few days.
     -Tig

[tonyvdb]

For capturing video on the PC the ATI all in wonder series cards do one of the best jobs. I have an AIW x800xt AGP and it is a supper card but you must have a AMD 1800+ or better for it to capture DVD quality without dropped frames. For anologe PCI cards do a lousy job and do not give you very good captuer abilities.

Tig, I would be intrested in the Newtek software that you mention do you have any other information on it?
Thanks

[Tigger]

tonyvdb wrote:

Tig, I would be intrested in the Newtek software that you mention do you have any other information on it?
Thanks

Tony,

The program is called SpeedEdit, the URL is below.   Its the same editor they will be shipping with VT[5], which is an improvement from VT4 version, which takes itself back to the original Toaster/Flyer editor interface.  It list for $495, but lots of dealers have it for $50 or so off, it should be shipping in the next month or too.   Its PAL and NTSC capable, completely resolution independent and really was impressive at both NAB and Siggraph demos.   I'll post here when it ships (or after it ships if it ships during my vacation) but I think its really going to take a big chunk of the PC Market, and there is going to be several cool plugins available for it when it ships including my DVECreator which actually will probably ship first since the DVE format isnt changing between VT4 & VT5. In addition, how cool will it be to use "The World's Fastest Video Editor"    
     -Tig

Speededit

[tonyvdb]

Thanks, That looks very powerful for such a low price. :-D

[McFly]

by iamaboringperson on 2006/8/6 20:45:58 I'm wish to transferu analogue home movies to DVD (and other digital formats) for preservation. I was going to by a video capture card for my x86/Win machine. Then I thought that I've owned a computer (A4000T) that was basically marketed as a video production workstation for the past 8 years. It would be nice to use that for video capture instead.

I would love to see everyone owns one A4000 with magicboxs doing that. Ah, I love those ancient Genlock nights.

But reality is, insisting on that idea today would be ridiculous, and mind you, I adore Amiga.

I use both Mac and PC for the job, also , sometimes in flash use my JVC line DVD-Recorder.

For straight DVD there is no more charming way then Final Cut Pro on Mac.

But PC with AviSynth and Gordian is untouchable power.

I belong to LD generation of users, and DVD never impressed me because resolution benefits where almost nonexistent + all other problems DVD brought. But that is another story.

This is Amiga forum, power computing, that involves some learning as well. I don't see any reason why you should employ MPEG2 idea, when you can transfer your analog video tapes, once captured in MPEG2 in XVID/DiVX. With decent know-how , after you see the results, you will postpone DVD idea soon.  Unless naturally, when you are passing your camera recordings and then obviously want best you can get. Sadly in 2006's consumers sphere. DVD would fit that bill.

Armed with Gordian and AviSynth on PC (with a few well shaped scripts for AVI ) for everything else XVID results will make you more then happy.

As said earlier about ATI AIW, I would advise to stay away from the same. I have on my PC also AIW. Yes it is great card. But ATI has very sneaky Macromedia protection that creates too many bad things for too many people. There a few utils to make this go away , but it behaves differently with associated machines/OS setups. There are army of people on AIW forums who swear never to even consider AIW again, because of this.

Terratrec is a great choice reflecting value and great stability.

Like with ATI, on same VHS tapes you could have problems with dropouts and unless you have some decent S-VHS with TBC, you might get in trouble with spoiled babies like AIW.

Older then 1994. VHS models have no problem with Macromedia, and they shape rock sold output. Ironically, execution of parts and proper mechanic makes this bitter taste when compared with present offer.  JVC capture cards have TBC implemented onboard and they cost reasonably.

If you are planing upgrade of your PC anytime soon, you could also consider AVIVO cards.

As said earlier Pinnacle might be elemental in many departments, particularly if I think about Premiere.  But if you are a complete beginner, simple and comfortable timeline of Pinnacle for basic MPEG2 editing and creating DVD is a good choice.

There are soo many things to be sad more, but this be all from me.

PC programs like Gordian, VirtualDub combined with AviSynth should particularly appeal to Amiga video power users, because they are in essence very much what Amiga is.

Extracting every bit of power from the machine...and authors of these programs offer presently the best available tools for the job. Sure, they are not easy for beginners, but once you master you way, you are in charge of best there is.

With so many tutorials and forums, learning is really more motivation then burden.  After that coding becomes addictive  
:-P  





   

[oldman3000]

I use the PAR card with IV24 from GVP.  I use the Amiga for fun and with the PAR card and IV24 had many hours of fun.  If you use a PC and Toaster Card, I would only use it with 2 CPU minimum., My system is 3000 Tower and so far in the history of this unit I have replace Battery, Mouse and Power supply.  I hope to get 20 more years out of it, I also have the spectrum and if you read the manuel you'll find a section on HD T.V., Wow 1992.

Mike
San Diego

[leirbag28]

@Tigger

I know that what you just finished saying is for the most part accurate.  And I wasnt implying you were condoning anything illegal.I was just saying, it Costs money to buy the software............though there is cool stuff free for download if one knows where.


But seriously........show me an easier way to make DVD's than my DVD recorder, And I will gladly throw mine in the trash.


I totally disagree with WIndows being able to multitask better than an AMiga. Never!

because I have yet to see anything with the elegance of the way Amiga uses Public screens............Show me.I wanna see!

Im looking for reasons to Finally leave the Amiga for Good.

Although the OS is outdated in technical terms.nothing is more correctly done than AmigaOS

If you dont know what I mean....here is what I mean:

SCALA MM300 is old (1993?)   Powerpoint is New (PowerPointXP)

Show me a Multimedia application as easy to use as SCALA and with the elegance.......and the fact that this interface uses a logical GUI, and I will show you me abandoning SCALA.

So Workbench (Multitasking/Public screens)  is to Windows Mutlitasking......................What SCALAs interface is to PowerPoints.

Thats the truth!

Yes.Powerpoint is much more advanced now and all..............But SCALA is done right! unbeatable!

Same with Workbench integrated with the Amiga...............still unbeatable till now in my eyes.

You might say "I need to ghet my eyes checked"  but I think alot of Hardcore Amiga users will agree with me.


That does not mean I dont like MAC OSX for instance......I totally Do!  thats my next permanent computer and OS (INTEL MAC)

But I will take a New Generation Amiga with the same concept as the old ones any day!


My point is........the DVD recorder is straight foward and easy! and Good quality for backing up a tape.


PC's are no fun!   Hassle Hassle Hassle, like WHite Castle, when one graduates with a Tassle.

:-)