Is Amiga (the company) dead?

[John_Hoek]

I'm new registered inhere. But I like to take part of this discussion.

To me it's very clear that Gateway still owns every rights on Amiga patents; on Amiga hardware AND software, including AmigaOS untill OS version3.1 .
AmigaInc. has only a license bought from Gateway to use the AmigaOS and to develop to it etc. Of course the changes after version 3.1 are not into the deal.

Gateway bought all Amiga rights to produce etc. Amiga's form Escom.  Escom bought all rights 2 years earlier from Commodore leftovers. Hense Escom has sold new A1200's and A4000's!

So to me it's clear. Gateway has all rights on Amiga.




 

[AJCopland]

Welcome John, im pretty new here too.

So Gateway still own (I thought they'd died too until i google'd them) the rights to the original hardware and OS3.1 whereas AmigaInc own the trademarks for OS3.5/3.9 and in conjunction with Hyperion to OS4.x

thanks for clearing that up

[snowman040]

Hm,... yes rather confusing  :-?

So in order to get Amiga 'back from 1994' and to produce hardware and software both for new Amigas and classic Amigas (with Amiga brand) it would take bying:

- patents/IP from Gateway
- Amino/Amiga Inc. (or their licence)
- Hyperion/OS4.0 development
- ... ?

I guess scoring two out of three would be almost impossible, especially because Gateway bought Amiga "cuz they had the money", and not to do something with it... I doubt they would sell the patents for what they paid for them :-( (was it 5 million$?)

[AmigaBlitter]

Ainc is alive.

 ;-)

[AJCopland]

@AmigaBlitter

from what everyones been saying that sounds like half the problem :-D

I dont think a new amiga is feasible, certainly not one with new custom chips etc. What i'd like to see is Dennis' MiniMig become a fully fledged OpenSource project and have people extend that to AGA/a1200 capabilities.

.. but anyway that's way way way off this topic  :-)

[AmigaBlitter]

Other steps are necessary before start talking about new custom chip.

The custom chip way.... however.... is feasible.

[SHADES]

I have read numerous posts about Gateway selling the rights to use of their still owned patents. These are not AMIGA names. I also beleive most of the hardware rights was sold two. An exception was a patent for the two button mouse. However A-Inc have the right to use the patent and any other they feel is useful.
They certainly don't own OS4 or 3.9. A Inc bought the rights to the OS and can do what they like to it. I don't rember the post from Fleecy Moss but I do rember reading it.

Exactly what A Inc own when it comes to the rest of AMIGA property is a mystery to me, Hyperion own OS4 but there is some sort of clause saying A Inc can buy it back whenever they want to.

AMIGA world.net may provide more info. I can't be bothered digging around to find any of it. Sorry. Just not that interested.

[dammy]

I have read numerous posts about Gateway selling the rights to use of their still owned patents. These are not AMIGA names. I also beleive most of the hardware rights was sold two. An exception was a patent for the two button mouse.

Most of the patents have either expired or will be expiring shortly.  

They certainly don't own OS4 or 3.9. A Inc bought the rights to the OS and can do what they like to it. I don't rember the post from Fleecy Moss but I do rember reading it.

No, Amiga Inc owns WB 3.1.  3.5/3.9 is by H&P which has a dispute going with Amiga Inc over $.  OS4, like 3.5/3.9, is owned by Hyperion and not Amiga Inc but also like H&P, is based on Amiga Inc IP so Hyperion only owns the code that does not infringe on Amiga Inc's IP.  Unlike the H&P contract, it appears Amiga Inc can buy back OS4 for $25K.  

Dammy

[Bodie_CI5]

I really need to brush up on corporate law, Dammy.

When you talk of the patents expiring or are expiring, what exactly does this entail? That they are up for grabs? By patents do we mean the actual tech can be reproduced (fpr example) or something?

[...]Hyperion only owns the code that does not infringe on Amiga Inc's IP.

So this supplement or advancement to AOS by Hyperion, is it a "dilution" of the whole OS as we know it? By dilution I mean are a series of companies able to stake a claim to the OS causing further problems down the track?

[cgutjahr]

I'd like to point out a few things. The only public statement regarding ownership of the trademarks and the IP is from Amino/Amiga Inc, made in early 2000. They claimed to have acquired the IP, the trademarks, the German subsidiary Amiga International aswell as office computers and furniture from the old (Gateway) Amiga Inc. They also said they had licensed the patents from Gateway.

(About) two years ago, the Gateway subsidiary "Amiga Development LLC" sued some other company for patent infringement, which demonstrates that at least the patents are still owned by Gateway.

That's all the public knows (or rather: "has been told", wouldn't want to rely on AmigaInc statements too much). Everybody who claims anything else is either relying on rumours (that might be true or not), or is simply making things up.

@Bodie_CI5:

When you talk of the patents expiring or are expiring, what exactly does this entail? That they are up for grabs? By patents do we mean the actual tech can be reproduced (fpr example) or something?

A patent protects an idea. If you file a patent, the patent office (theoretically) checks if the patent really covers a new idea and then grants the patent. From now on, the patent holder is the only entity allowed to use said idea in commercial products (or license it to other parties).

However, a patent does not grant you a monopoly on your idea for lifetime - it expires after a while, to make sure the idea doesn't die with your company if you f?ck things up. In most areas of the world, patents expire after 15 (or was it 17?) years. Once a patent expires, you can't apply for another patent with the same idea, as it's no longer a new idea. The concept originally protected by the patent is now free to use for everybody.

This is a moot discussion anyway. As already mentioned, most of the Amiga patents deal with details of the hardware implementation, the only one that would be still relevant for us today is the one that covers multiple mousebutton clicks in drop down menus - and even that one should have expired everywhere by now.

[bloodline]

Bodie_CI5 wrote:

[...]Hyperion only owns the code that does not infringe on Amiga Inc's IP.

So this supplement or advancement to AOS by Hyperion, is it a "dilution" of the whole OS as we know it? By dilution I mean are a series of companies able to stake a claim to the OS causing further problems down the track?

Yeah, that's a pretty good way of looking at it. I have also read on forums frequented by OS4 developers that advanced parts of OS4 are owned by their respective developer rather than Hyperion... This increases the number of claimants to the OS.

[BerndW]

This is all very very interesting.

From various online searches, I found that there are three "Amiga, Inc.": one is from the Gateway days, but I cannot find where it was incorporated. It is the company where Jim Collas was president. Does anybody know more about this "Amiga, Inc."?

Because this is so confusing (THREE "Amiga, Inc." and all independent!) I think we should write something like "Amiga, Inc. (Washington)" or "Amiga, Inc. (Delaware)", otherwise nobody understands which company is meant.

I checked that patents expire 20 years after the date of the first filing, so I would guess that the original Amiga patents are not relevant for Amiga any more.

While searching for this on patente I also found out something maybe interesting at www.uspto.gov. In the Trademarks section, you can search for all "Amiga" trademarks. And there it says that in Juli and August of this year, which is only a few days ago, Amiga, Inc. (Delaware) requested several trademarks for "Amiga". These trademarks appear to be like the ones owned by Gateway and then by Amiga, Inc. (Washington). So, why would the Delaware company do such a filing now in 2006, if they already owned them?

Another thing that can be found only in German maybe, is that in 1997 a German court concluded that ESCOM did not explicitly obtain any rights, or at least any exclusive rights, for the Amiga 3.1 operating system:

In der zwischen der Commodore-Amiga-Gruppe und der X. geschlossenen Veträgen ist nur von -sämtlichen aufgrund der Patente bestehenden Rechte, Titel und Rechtsansprüche- die Rede; das Betriebssystem OS3.1 ist dort nicht als solches bezeichnet. Den vorgelegten Unterlagen über eine Vereinbarung zwischen diesen Parteien vom 13.03.1995 lässt sich deshalb nicht hinreichend überprüfbar entnehmen, daß die X. die ausschliesslichen Lizenzrechte an dem Betriebssystem erworben hat.

So, if Amiga, Inc. (Delaware) owns no patents, no trademarks, and no operating system, why does it even exist? This I cannot understand.

[pierre]

there are NOT 3 differnt amiga Inc.  there is one.  It started after/durign the gateway period.  they have moved around, maybe for some leagal/finacal reason.
"why does it even exist? This I cannot understand."
nobody does! but they DO own the rights to the OS, they licence/share them with hyperion, at least for 3.5 3.9 and 4.0 thanks all I know and it may be wrong?

[BerndW]

Also the Wikipedia had very old information, which is why I asked in this forum:

- Amiga (disambiguation)
- Amiga, Inc.

Maybe somebody can update this, and explain that there is one "Amiga, Inc. (Washington)" and one "Amiga, Inc. (Delaware)", and another one from before 1998? Otherwise nobody can understand, if "disambiguation" is itself ambiguous when it puts three different companies with the same name in a single entry as if it was one company.

[BerndW]

pierre wrote:
there are NOT 3 differnt amiga Inc.  there is one.  It started after/durign the gateway period.  they have moved around, maybe for some leagal/finacal reason.

There may not be three, but that there are at least two I am 100% sure, and you can verify:

1 = Washington UBI number 601 983 734, incorporated 30. September 1999 (source: http://www.secstate.wa.gov/corps/search.aspx)

2 = Delaware file number 3712284, incorporated 7. October 2003, now operating from New York (sources: https://sos-res.state.de.us/tin/GINameSearch.jsp, http://appsext5.dos.state.ny.us/corp_public/corpsearch.entity_search_entry)

These are totally different companies. A separate legal entity is not the same as "moving around". A lot of confusion is because people do not understand this. As to why the same persons (same president at least) decided to have two companies with the same name, anybody can judge by their own standards. I think it is something like deliberate deception.

So, who knows where I can find information about the "Amiga, Inc." where Jim Collas was president? I looked in South Dakota and California, but cannot find anything.

[pierre]

they had to do this as they where being sued, it the same company. don't get to confused it's not worth it. Same company moving around....