Optimism and the Amiga Community

[jarrody2k]

Hey Mike,

My questions weren't rhetorical by the way.  And I wasn't really boxing your opinion.  Was just posing some hypothetical questions.  I really am trying to understand whether Amiga One/Pegasos have really been positive for the Amiga community.

Sure they don't have the final results yet (and there certainly aren't enough resources to do this sort of thing quickly) but I do wonder if there anything else to take from the new developments?

Cheers,

Jarrod

[Manu]

jarrody2k wrote:

bhoggett wrote:
Just to add that my earlier assessment does not include the minimig project. IMHO that belongs in the retro scene and as such has nothing to do with revitalising the Amiga as a platform, even if it may well find a successful niche for itself. This also means it is not a target for the criticisms I expressed earlier.

Does Amiga need to exist as a new desktop to live on?

To me that is an absolute must. Of course it could go
embedded, beat the **** out of symbian and exist on
every phone in the futre (or NOT) Anyway, that is not
the Amiga I learned to use so it makes no difference
to me (Btw I hate cellulars.)

AmigaOS was great for its time.  Perhaps to this day would still be considered very agile and still relevant to the modern desktop.  But as with BeOS we really don't have the resources to compete with Windows (or the more mature Linux solutions) in terms of being a viable and supported desktop alternative.

IMO competition is not the problem, Amiga is not up-to-date yet so competition is out of the question.
Focus should be on the basic stuff

-getting it out to users easily.
-make it interesting for old developers to try it out without having to invest a great deal of money
-not chaining it to special hardware that only makes more excuses to NOT inverst money in Amiga again.

[bhoggett]

jarrody2k wrote:
Does Amiga need to exist as a new desktop to live on?

That depends on how you define "live on". Is UAE sufficient for the Amiga to live on? Probably. Is it enough for the Amiga to be revitalised? Obviously not.

AmigaOS was great for its time.  Perhaps to this day would still be considered very agile and still relevant to the modern desktop.  But as with BeOS we really don't have the resources to compete with Windows (or the more mature Linux solutions) in terms of being a viable and supported desktop alternative.

True, but I don't think competition with the big boys - in ANY market - is an option.

Minimig may not be an improvement on software, and mainly an efficiency improvement in terms of hardware, but it is a cheap way that Amiga can be deployed in all sorts of gadgets for the modern world.  I'm no electrical engineer, but such a product could have a low cost of manufacture, a tiny footprint and much less potential for component failure than a full-blown modern PC?

I've never understodd this apparent belief that the embedded market (particularly kiosks and similar stuff) is a problem just begging for a solution.

It isn't. It's a more dynamic market and is expanding more than the desktop, which means there are comparatively more opportunities, but at the same time it is a cutthroat market with some very experienced well funded players who already have product in place.

Sure, people can try to squeeze in Amiga solutions in there, but my estimate of the chances for success would be significantly less than 1%.

Cheap genlock/kiosk displays and a hand-held gaming device are two potent and viable (?) things that could result from the work of minimig.  People can think of more?

Gaming devices already exist, though of course a minimig might be able to fill a niche for a handheld Amiga - but again this won't offer the market opportunities of other handhelds because no one is going to write new 'Classic' Amiga games.

Kiosk displays... any savings on hardware would be eaten up in software development costs. Migration costs to and from an Amiga based system would be huge too. It really doesn't make a great deal of sense.

I guess my biting question is this:  What makes the 'retro' Minimig less of a continuance of Amiga than AmigaOS/Pegasos?

How long is a piece of string? The short answer is simple: it has virtually no potential for creating a market for new software. Then again, AmigaOS4 and MorphOS are in similar positions due to the decisions I mentioned earlier in the thread.

I'm not sure your question is specific enough to be answered. It can only be commented upon.

[itix]

My questions weren't rhetorical by the way. And I wasn't really boxing your opinion. Was just posing some hypothetical questions. I really am trying to understand whether Amiga One/Pegasos have really been positive for the Amiga community.

Without Pegasos I would have lost interest on Amiga long ago. It was certainly positive to me but not necessarily positive to you...

I dont care what is "positive" to the Amiga. I only do care what is the best to me.

[itix]

I guess I want to ask, do you think optimism helped the Amiga 'cause'?

From the year 1996 onward every year was supposed to be the year of Amiga... Magazines wrote how things are getting better and new hardware is in sight.

In the end nothing happened and those believing to hype left.

[irishmike]

It's too bad that Commodore couldn't have benefitted from Microsoft being "big bad company" like Apple did in 1994-95.  Apple Computer was on the virge of being snuffed out by stiff competition from the Redmond Giant and then a court decided that Apple was the only viable alternative to their product so they basically told Microsoft that if Apple went under, they would regulate them heavily because they would have snuffed their ONLY competition in the market.  A few deals and so on later (and unfortunately part ownership), Apple lived on to make one of the greatest comebacks in history.  They are the largest manufacturer of Portable MP3 devices on the planet!

I just wish there had been some kind of transfusion like that which could have kept Commodore afloat.  I realize there was some management issues within the company and likely those would have had to been rectified, but the fact is that Commodore was not the only competition to a given company back then, so the place is history is wrong for this to have worked.

Just my thoughts.  Not really very relevant to the thread in general.  Just wishful thinking :-)

POINT:  If there had been development on Amiga for the years the platform has been absent from the mainstream market by the developers who worked on it (like Apple or Microsoft) then I think indeed Amiga would have been "Top 3" instead of the current (IMO) "Top 2"  (MS and Apple).

Who knows, Commodore could have been where Apple is today.

[jarrody2k]

bhoggett wrote:

jarrody2k wrote:
Does Amiga need to exist as a new desktop to live on?

That depends on how you define "live on". Is UAE sufficient for the Amiga to live on? Probably. Is it enough for the Amiga to be revitalised? Obviously not.

True.  I guess the optimistic success would be when people previous unfamiliar with 'Amiga' technology, or previously not using it, begin to use the technology by their own desire or need.

Cheap genlock/kiosk displays and a hand-held gaming device are two potent and viable (?) things that could result from the work of minimig.  People can think of more?

Gaming devices already exist, though of course a minimig might be able to fill a niche for a handheld Amiga - but again this won't offer the market opportunities of other handhelds because no one is going to write new 'Classic' Amiga games.

Kiosk displays... any savings on hardware would be eaten up in software development costs. Migration costs to and from an Amiga based system would be huge too. It really doesn't make a great deal of sense.

Hehe, I don't think the 'kiosk market' is a desirable thing.  Given that most modern kiosks are digital displays, the MiniMig doesn't sound a reasonable choice.  Also a good point with the software effort, even if a large order of displays were needed (much like with the train stations) the software conversion could be a deal-breaker.  Though, the local stations here *are* based on old Amigas... not exactly a huge profit to be gained, but it is something.

An Amiga handheld gaming machine would be pretty cool.  There are certainly enough retro fans around to make a MiniMig product a very profitable thing.  And really, look at some of the most profitable games on the DS and PSP.. basically 2D games!

Sure it ain't the suave of Sony, but some well placed marketing could mean a number of ex-fans (and just pixel gaming fanboys) would snap them up.  ThinkGeek.com seems to be a place that would be ideal for selling a handheld MiniMig.  It might out-trump the handheld Sudoku (please!)

I guess my biting question is this:  What makes the 'retro' Minimig less of a continuance of Amiga than AmigaOS/Pegasos?

How long is a piece of string? The short answer is simple: it has virtually no potential for creating a market for new software. Then again, AmigaOS4 and MorphOS are in similar positions due to the decisions I mentioned earlier in the thread.

I'm not sure your question is specific enough to be answered. It can only be commented upon.

And that is all I want

So I guess from your point of view, the Amiga dies with its software development?

Cheers,

Jarrod

[jarrody2k]

itix wrote:

My questions weren't rhetorical by the way. And I wasn't really boxing your opinion. Was just posing some hypothetical questions. I really am trying to understand whether Amiga One/Pegasos have really been positive for the Amiga community.

Without Pegasos I would have lost interest on Amiga long ago. It was certainly positive to me but not necessarily positive to you...

I dont care what is "positive" to the Amiga. I only do care what is the best to me.

Hey itix,

Of course I can't extrapolate just you to the community at large, but certainly you are evidence that the further efforts of the Amiga hardware/OS options has maintained interest and enthusiasm of the user-base.

Jarrod.

[jarrody2k]

Manu wrote:
IMO competition is not the problem, Amiga is not up-to-date yet so competition is out of the question.
Focus should be on the basic stuff

-getting it out to users easily.
-make it interesting for old developers to try it out without having to invest a great deal of money
-not chaining it to special hardware that only makes more excuses to NOT inverst money in Amiga again.

Hope in AROS then?

Jarrod.

[zylesea]

Gojirax wrote:

If the MiniMig is all the classic Amiga hardware coded into one chip, couldn't that chip be placed into an AmigaOne for applications that absolutely require custom chips? Then you could run system friendly apps with OS4, and old custom chip apps off the MiniMig?

You need to map the addresses correctly - not the way to go...

[bhoggett]

jarrody2k wrote:
So I guess from your point of view, the Amiga dies with its software development?

No, the Amiga will always live on as a retro platform, just like the ZX Spectrum or the C64.

But in my view the one and most important factor outside the retro scene is the userbase. Think of it as a species of animal, and what happens in nature: there are two crucial population points - one high, where the population level is so high it can no longer be supported by the food available and so will start to drop, and the other low, where the population is so low it cannot reproduce fast enough to balance out the natural death rate, even if food is plentiful. The latter leads to extinction.

The same with a userbase. If you can build a userbase that's big enough to motivate sufficient development (be it commercial or open source), you have a thriving or at least active platform. If your userbase has dropped so low that it simply doesn't generate enough development, the platform won't have enough about it to attract new users so you're on the slippery slope to nowhere.

This is what happened with the Amiga scene several years ago. The opportunity was there to focus on making sure the userbase that existed then, poor though it was compared to the good old days, would not diminish further - and maybe the trend could have even been reversed slowly. Instead, the focus was put on the short term interests of a few companies and individuals, at the cost of losing even more users and fragmenting what little was left into even smaller distinct platforms. The result is that all of the different platforms have dropped below the survival threshold and no longer have a rescue path.

AROS is slightly different in that it was not really part of the above scenario, but it too cannot balance the userbase/developer equation. At the moment AROS is only used by its developers, and because the developers don't acknowledge the needs of potential ordinary users, this is unlikely to ever change - in turn resulting in the fact that the developer base cannot increase to make more software available for it, which in turn would attract users. Catch 22.

[sir_inferno]

that minimig thing is kool...

[cybernoid]

I'll buy AForever 2006 this month. Why? because it runs on my x86 pc and it's not expensive.
Amiga Os 4.0 for ppc??? why not intel? Why not the best n'cheap processor, the processor of the ppl?
Why dont they do a 50euro amiga os 4 for x86 with some good old demos and games ready to run?
I heard Amiga os 4 is only 64mg and works 100% in ram... so it should be damn incredibly fast on my 2400mhz...
Please everybody wants amiga os4 port to x86 and with a sort of cygnus library so i can load good linux software, like firefox and open office. Just that and amiga will rise again.
Why? no registers, easier and faster than linux/windows, few disk access so more economy and durability of hard-drives... and it's different.

BR

[dammy]

AROS is slightly different in that it was not really part of the above scenario, but it too cannot balance the userbase/developer equation. At the moment AROS is only used by its developers, and because the developers don't acknowledge the needs of potential ordinary users, this is unlikely to ever change - in turn resulting in the fact that the developer base cannot increase to make more software available for it, which in turn would attract users. Catch 22.

You keep saying AROS is nothing but developers, yet I am not a developer.  I also know of others who are clearly not developers either.   So clearly, we *users* of AROS do exist within the AROS community.

Dammy

[justthatgood]

Realism. It's that really bitter, hard pill to swallow.  It's the one that makes people wonder if Elvis is still alive and stuff. So many people want to believe, they shut out anything that will distract them from inevitable.

I guess I'm going to say this to the people. If you were able to be in the scene during the lifetime of the Amiga, be happy for the memories. Your nostalgia will keep you afloat.

As for those that were too young to be able to afford to be in the scene, or just managed to discover it, treat it as the great piece of history that it is.

Unless someone with a lot of lot of money came along to fight and bribe off lawyers, business execs, and other money gunners in the business, Amiga will never exisit at any other level then just the twinkle in the eyes of hobbyiests everywhere.

[jarrody2k]

bhoggett wrote:
AROS is slightly different in that it was not really part of the above scenario, but it too cannot balance the userbase/developer equation. At the moment AROS is only used by its developers, and because the developers don't acknowledge the needs of potential ordinary users, this is unlikely to ever change - in turn resulting in the fact that the developer base cannot increase to make more software available for it, which in turn would attract users. Catch 22.

I guess returning to our original theme: Would you say AROS increasing its user base is either optimistic or unrealistic (or somewhere inbetween)?

You say that currently they are on the wrong course, but given better direction is it still possible for AROS to claw back more users?

Jarrod.