Amiga's Worst Move?

[bloodline]

plasma wrote:

Some of the last computers Atari made was far better than the Amiga (except for the OS of course.) Atari Falcon, for example.

The Arati falcon was vastly superior to the Amiga, in terms of hardware. But the Falcon was a response to the Amiga as a complete unit. Especially with MiNT rather than GEM.

All in all, I believe Amiga would have been better hands with Atari.

The Amiga would never have been made if Atari had got their hands on the technology. Atari would still have died in the 90s... All the great computer companies of the 80's died in the 90s.

Commodore
Atari
Apple

[plasma]

bloodline wrote:

Anyway what makes you think that the Amiga team wouldn't be able to convince Atari to use AmigaOS? It was far better than GEM OS.

If you read the Atari-Amiga agreement (it is available if you google it)... it shows clearly that Atari want to use parts of the Amiga technology (ie the stuff which Amiga had patents on, like DMA, blitters etc...). Atari did not want the Chips or the OS, they just wanted the technology for their own machines without having to licence the patents.

Apparently they had plans to, at least, use parts of AmigaOS in their Atari 1850XLD.

From http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/1850xld.html
One ex-Atari Corp. also discovered proposals for a Unix-style GUI kernel for the "Mickey" project. How much of this was the original AmigaOS system is unknown but it is likely that it contained information on the Amiga EXEC and Intuition, with some kind of custom "AtariDOS" additions.

[dammy]

You speak as if Commodore was a competant company!!! Don't forget that none of the sections communicated, they were all in competition for budgets... I think dave pointed out that no one in the Amiga teams even knew of the CDTV until it was ready for market... And of the Teams which were working on Amiga systems, even they didn't know what each other was doing. It was just like Apple before they got Jobs back in, All the 80's computer companies died in the 90's... Only apple survived because Jobs is an arrogant MoFo. I doubt if the Amiga teams knew much of the Commodore IBM-PC and vice versa...

Monday morning quarter backing, we some really horrific management skills of C=.  What I am saying, atleast Gould and Ali (more Gould though) actually made millions of dollars before they blew it entirely.  If Billed&Fleeced made millions by selling millions of units then lost it all, it would be on thing.  They never got to that phase, they just borrowed and blew it all with nothing of significance to show for it.  That is what I am talking about.  

Dammy

[Waccoon]

raddude9:
Amiga OS:
Took half a decade to get from 1.1 to 2.0

I don't think that was a big deal.  Really, AmigaOS did its job quite well for the hardware at the time.  AGA really stifled 3.x in a big way.

What about getting Windows from 9x to NT5?  That transition was way, way overdue.  What about MacOS?  Even after every Mac had a PPC, Apple still didn't put much effort into modernizing the OS with real memory protection ("Macs don't crash"), and in the end, they effectively scrapped it and started over with someone else's OS.  It took Linux about a decade before people started taking it seriously, and it still has market share in the single digits.

Bloodline:  Atari's fate would not have changed. Imagine if Apple had bought the Amiga team...

Didn't Steve Jobs scoff at Lorraine, saying it "had too much hardware?"

Apple has too long a history of packaging mediocre hardware in fancy boxes.

Dammy:  IIRC, Haynie stated about the time that of C='s death was the time the x86 was really picking up steam. I will point out that is when he decided against Zorro IV and was going to go with PCI. C= guessed the the big market was indeed x86, they just botched it with the 486 speed increase issues.

It would've been interesting to see what would have come of PPC if both Amiga and Apple were using the chip.  If anything, haveing more "real" computers use it would have helped one of PPC's major drawbacks:  sucky legacy support.  In its early days, MacOS was hardly robust enough to use PPC to its fullest potential.

Coldfish:  The A500's poor upgradability didnt help.

Arguable, seeing how well Apple has done.  I find it sad that you need to spend at least $1,200 on a Mac just to get one expansion slot.  Even an A1200 is more expandable than an iMac.

Bloodline:  Only apple survived because Jobs is an arrogant MoFo.

Sorry, it's totally obvious, but it pleases me to hear at least one other person say it.  :-)

[KThunder]

i think if when atari lost amiga to commodore they both agreed to produce amiga compatible machines both companies coupld have been alive today.
atari could have taken the wedge/low end machines and commodore the box/high end ones.
instead when atari lost amiga they rushed to slap together a machine and the companies competed alone against each other and apple and the x86 world.

[Plaz]

they both agreed to produce amiga compatible machines both companies coupld have been alive today (Atari/Commodore)

Now that would have made some kind of sense to me too. The combined resources could have been formitable. But reading the history of the companies and players, egos would have never allowed it to happen. If the proper management and foresight existed at each company, think of the possibilities. It is a great "what if".

Plaz

[coldfish]

Waccoon:

   Coldfish: The A500's poor upgradability didnt help.

Arguable, seeing how well Apple has done. I find it sad that you need to spend at least $1,200 on a Mac just to get one expansion slot. Even an A1200 is more expandable than an iMac.

Agreed more or less, however a vanilla iMac is arguably a more useful machine by todays standards compared to the A1200.  Apple have always been criticised over poor upgradability but they constantly refresh their product lines, so it probably makes up for it?

When AGA hit the scene the A500 was really showing its age, and the few upgrades that existed were poor value, I remember a supra? HD add-on retailing for about the same price as a complete 486 system, and the A570 CD drive offered little if any CD-only software, making it virtually redundant.

Anyway, its probably hindsight that has me seeing upgradeability as an issue, after selling my A500 and A1200, since then, Ive been spoilt by cheap and plentyful upgrades on PC.

[gertsy]

IMHO I think the Amiga was always doomed when taken over by Commodore.  The A500 and A2000 were only modifications on the theme that was the A1000 ('85).  The 500 and 2000 were still being marketed by Commodore up until '92.  7 years of longevity is an indication of the durability and groundbreaking technology that was the Amiga.  It was also an inditement of the lack of ingenuity and initiative at CBM.  Simply put, I believe they rode the Amiga into the ground.  The A3000 was a further modification on the theme and a great step forward, but way too expensive for most users at the time it was released and it had some design limitations that retarded its capabilities.  When the A1200 and A4000 were released it was too late, the damage was done and Commodore was too far in debt to survive.  Don’t get me wrong the A1200 and A4000 were great machines but their technology was nowhere near as ground breaking, as the A1000 was when it was released.  If you read the Amiga Mag articles at the time of the A1200 and A4000s release, the reviewers were asking;
Where’s the 16bit sound.?  
Why only a 14mhz ‘020 in the 1200?  
Why no 24bit video?
These sort of questions were never asked about the A1000 as there was no comparative technology at the time.  

1.  Commodore rode on the Amiga technology for far too long.
 :getmad:

[Nitro]

Quote:
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What is Amiga's worst move today?

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Amiga Inc. and Genesi not working past their problems and bad blood with each other for Hyperion to make OS4 for available hardware.

[dammy]

You speak as if Commodore was a competant company!!! Don't forget that none of the sections communicated, they were all in competition for budgets... I think dave pointed out that no one in the Amiga teams even knew of the CDTV until it was ready for market... And of the Teams which were working on Amiga systems, even they didn't know what each other was doing. It was just like Apple before they got Jobs back in, All the 80's computer companies died in the 90's... Only apple survived because Jobs is an arrogant MoFo. I doubt if the Amiga teams knew much of the Commodore IBM-PC and vice versa...

Apple had what, 8 Billion in the bank.  That's a crap load of liquid capital just sitting there, that's more then enough to keep creditors happy even with crap sales for years.

As for your accurate description of C='s stupidity, now compare that to Billed&Fleeced Show.  Which one had a real company they rain aground and which one was a .com scheme they suckered folks into?  Now you see why I can honestly say, I rather have C='s management since they built a company on sales, and then lost it because of their incompetence vs .com scheme?

Dammy

[Savan]

CDTV:

A disaster in every way, overpriced obsolete hardware and unfocused marketing which not only detracted people from buying the thing

That sounds hell of a lot like the Amigaone.

Amiga Inc. and Genesi not working past their problems and bad blood with each other for Hyperion to make OS4 for available hardware.

Remember the TRIO (Amiga Inc,Hyperion,Eyetech) decided it would be best to start their own little monopoly, alienating every outsider who was interested in OS4 on other hardware. They are the only people responsible for the mess OS4 is in now.

Genesi is not to blame for Hyperions own stupidity.

[Demonlord]

I think te worst move was to ignore the sheaper hardware that was put out by Mac and pc vendors. Amiga shuld of implemented pci and things like that earlier.

[Olecranon]

My 2 cents..

Marketing between 87-90 was a big reason the Amiga failed.  Commodore should have gotten the Amiga into the large electronics chains like Best Buy.  I know they had the A500 in Sears, but the A2000/A2500 and A3000 (the professional models) could have used the exposure.  I think those machines would have done well sitting next to Turbo XT's and 286's.

The Amiga dealer situation was also pretty crappy here in the states.  In Minnesota, the only place you could get an A2000/A3000 was at a commodore dealer.  The dealers here did not offer a level of professionalism that could be found in the PC market.  I remember one "dealer" who literally had his store in a garage and the store was called Protecto.  Why would I buy a $1500 machine from a company called Protecto that was located in a garage?  Of course at the Commodore dealer, you didn't have a PC sitting next to it as a comparison.  The best selling point for any Amiga would have been having it setup next to a PC.

[K7HTH]

raddude9 wrote:
Amiga OS:
Took half a decade to get from 1.1 to 2.0

That was hillarious and sad!!

[snowman040]

dammy wrote:

As for your accurate description of C='s stupidity, now compare that to Billed&Fleeced Show.

Yes, they suck ... but also they do not have all IP, and patents for Amiga. GateWay2k still has them, so it's bit 'tied-down' situation. Not exactly like Commodore...

[bloodline]

dammy wrote:

You speak as if Commodore was a competent company!!! Don't forget that none of the sections communicated, they were all in competition for budgets... I think Dave pointed out that no one in the Amiga teams even knew of the CDTV until it was ready for market... And of the Teams which were working on Amiga systems, even they didn't know what each other was doing. It was just like Apple before they got Jobs back in, All the 80's computer companies died in the 90's... Only apple survived because Jobs is an arrogant MoFo. I doubt if the Amiga teams knew much of the Commodore IBM-PC and vice versa...

Apple had what, 8 Billion in the bank.  That's a crap load of liquid capital just sitting there, that's more then enough to keep creditors happy even with crap sales for years.

It's true they did have capital... but their computer lines were a mess. They had loads of different models with no real differentiation... The systems had little outward difference from a PC, with no clear market separation, with expensive under performing hardware... no valuable software assets (even then it was clear that hardware was no longer a real money spinner). Their operating system sucked and was years behind WindowsNT (and the *nix clones), even Win95 was better than MacOS of the mid to late nineties. Their R&D teams were stuck in a battle with each other and the management... there was no clear direction, and they were losing market share rapidly... There simply was no reason to buy a Mac.

When Jobs is brought back in, he gets rid of the Apple R&D and replaces it with his NeXT teams. He cancels all Macintosh lines, and replaces it with the iMac... a system that looked good, and had a distinctive form factor. The OS was prettied up, and the systems were sold as "Switch on and Go". All efforts are then spent developing the iTunes/iPod concept... with the Mac Lines being developed by his NeXT R&D into clearly separated consumer and professional lines, including the portable lines. Then he dumped the aging operating system and replaced it with his NeXT OS... if you look closely you will notice that Apple actually died... it was NeXT that survived, and it survived by arrogantly positioning itself as a "Luxury Brand"... Now Steve has manged to get rid of proprietary hardware, he's pushing back at getting some market... all this with a VERY strong Professional software range and the service oriented, iTunes + iPod to ensure a steady income...

As for your accurate description of C='s stupidity, now compare that to Billed&Fleeced Show.  Which one had a real company they rain aground and which one was a .com scheme they suckered folks into?  Now you see why I can honestly say, I rather have C='s management since they built a company on sales, and then lost it because of their incompetence vs .com scheme?

I refuse to discuss the Bill&Fleecy show because it was nothing more than a joke... The Amiga brand had one chance, the original Gateway idea using QNX kernel and a nice pretty custom front end (with a vaguely AmigaOS like API) a la MacOS X... ;-)