Amiga and CELL - What you think about

[bloodline]

Fransexy_ wrote:

bloodline wrote:

boing wrote:

As for game vs desktop, it's just semantics. Look at how many arcade units used 68000 and Z80. Both found on desktops. The Amiga started life intended for games and it's the neatest computer I've yet to see.

The industry has changed since the Amiga... In the begining games were just like normal desktop applications with pretty graphics (very linear with simple logic puzzles)... now games are a totally different breed of software (usually complex simulations, with advanced physics and 3d representations), pretty much unrelated to desktop applications.

You are true today games are different.Today games are the most complex and demanding task that a computer can run.In fact when you run a 3d game you are running all the posible desktop apps in one (music, graphics, 3d, internet.....) .

But they are demanding in a very specific way. The cell was an idea started a few years ago, to merge a CPU and a GPU onto the same chip, it was a nice idea but it doesn't really work... Both the CPU and a GPU are hugely complex and can't really share silicon at this time, without sacrificing something. Now nVidia and ATI are thinking of adding physics engines to thier GPU's... the GPU will become vastly more complex... at the same time as CPU's go dual core... there still isn't enough silicon space.

Or what desktop app do you know that need the requirements of any modern game?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You really don't know anything about games programming do you... :-(

I use Logic Pro 7.2, it requires vastly more CPU resources than any game ever has... but it doesn't use the GPU at all... Oblivion on the other hand doesn't even use 50% of the CPU time available on my Dual Core, but the GPU is maxed out.

-Edit- A Cell would has the Vector ability needed to run something like Logic Pro, but it certainly doesn't have the General Purpose ALU needed.

Sincerely i don´t understand the people that says that is not suitable for desktop!! my only logical explication is that that people only always like to disagree

Or they have a better understanding of the problem than you...

[KThunder]

most of us have stopped dreaming of a new amiga on a new cpu arch. powerpc os4 is becoming more of a vapor, dec alpha was a nice thought but not much more than that. then there was transmeta cpus, and various risc cpus from coldfire to hitachi sh4 etc.
noone out there has both the desire and capability to produce new hardware anymore. and when i say produce i mean prototypes, and production; not just prototypes or limited runs for a few willing to pay hundreds of dollars for a mobo with hardly any support.
like it or not aros and x86 are by far the most capable in  power, price and availability. download it and run it, and if you want to port it to some other system, cell ps2, gamecube, pda or whatever; go ahead. the aros team will give you everything you need from there side to be succesfull.
for now i agree with one f the other posters: stop the madness
ps pm lou_dias and discuss alternate systems like the gamecube.  (there that should get him out of our hair for a couple years or so  :-D )

[AmigaBlitter]

Hi billt

Even 800 Euro or US$ is not expensive.Considering that the new CPU modules (the 1,7 ghz clocked cpu) from ACK Software Controls cost 850 US$, a PS3 system with the CELL, Blu ray disk,an equivalent to G70 GPU, a 7,1 soun system, an hard disk, Ehternet ADSL connection and USB 2.0 ports, is not expensive don't you think?
For the loss calculation, you are right. They probably think  that can gain revenues through games, licensing, and so on.

[AmigaBlitter]

But a CELL based workstation with our lovely OS4 inside: you completely refuse the IDEA?

[Nycran]

I don't think cell's are a good solution. Too expensive, too radical and completely unnecessary.   Seriously an OS as lean and mean as Amigo OS should run so damned fast on a standard 2GHz machine!  How fast did the A500 run again? ;-)

[AmigaBlitter]

Hi

As i said to others, if you see in a reasonable time a Cell based workstation, you like the IDEA.

Remember that CELL is a target platform as Hyperion said

 :-)

Best regards

[SamuraiCrow]

Nycran wrote:
I don't think cell's are a good solution. Too expensive, too radical and completely unnecessary.   Seriously an OS as lean and mean as Amigo OS should run so damned fast on a standard 2GHz machine!  How fast did the A500 run again? ;-)

How standard a 2GHz system are we talking about.  One that comes with Windows preinstalled?  Why not just ask Amiga to GIVE AmigaOS to Microsoft since all major preassembled brands of PCs pay OEM licence fees to them.

OEM and standard licencing are an important way to keep Microsoft from taking over any MORE of the industry than they already have.

BTW there is a 1.7 GHz G4 accelerator announced from ACK Software Controls for the AmigaOne XT and MicroA1-c and yes AmigaOS does fly on them.  If they were available to everyone it would be good for Amiga but they simply aren't.

The A500 ran at 7 MHz and came with a buggy version of Workbench 1.3.  WB 2+ came out and most of the Amiga software wouldn't run on the enhanced chipset because people were so used to bypassing the OS that by the time WB 3+ came out nobody cared about the OS they just wanted to bang on the chipset.  What's left for people who bypassed the OS?  Nothing.

The Cell is expensive primarily becuase of the large die size and because it runs on RamBus memory.  But seriously, if people are willing to pay $750 for a 1.7 GHz G4 processor then what will be the difference if people buy a PS3 instead?  Sure OEM licencing will go to Sony but they're taking a loss.  I think moving to the Cell is a good idea becuase the instruction set of the SPEs are designed not to need to change so only the PPE needs to improve.

[T_Bone]

AmigaBlitter wrote:
But a CELL based workstation with our lovely OS4 inside: you completely refuse the IDEA?

You know, if they'd just get OS4 onto something freaking reasonable and commonly available, I wouldn't care about all these wacky things they'd like to try to do, but if these two concepts are supposed to be mutually exclusive as we're told, then no, I completely refuse the idea. I'd rather just have OS4 on hardware I can buy and use today and tomorrow.

[humppa]

BTW there is a 1.7 GHz G4 accelerator announced from ACK Software Controls for the AmigaOne XT and MicroA1-c and yes AmigaOS does fly on them. If they were available to everyone it would be good for Amiga but they simply aren't.

When do people finally realize that what we need is cheap off-the-shelf hardware in order to enlarge the userbase and get a reasonable amount of developers?
Heck, we don't even have a half-decent webbrowser, no office package and people are dreaming that >$1.000 hardware could save the platform? It's rather looks like DOA.

First aim at something -reasonable-, if that's achieved (b tw, I am still not able to run OS4 on -something- available) then there might be some room for your pipedreams (Cell, Dual G5, blabla).

[Louis Dias]

I remember when the HP PA-RISC chip was being reviewed for the next Amiga.  I had room for 4 cores.  1 cpu core, the 'AAA' chip, a DSP chip and I forget what else...possibly a Kickstart 'rom'...

ATI's latest technology includes physics processing on the GPU...and this is part of DirectX 10.  They also hinted that some of this would be in Nintendo's new GPU.  Just watch "The Last Word" feature on Gamespot.com ...

Some one mentioned that the Cell's purpose was do be able to do it all on one chip...including graphics.  In that sense it's already a failure.  Sony had to give up on the graphics capabilities of the Cell and sign up NVidia.

I like ATI's approach to the GC and Wii.  It has an integrated gpu, northbridge, southbridge, dsp and ppu in one tight package.  Might I also mention that the GC's PPC cpu is/was a quite capable desktop cpu and since 'Broadway' is going to be 100% backwards compatible with it, so will Wii's cpu.

I would toot the 360's horn but I imagine contracts between Nintendo and ATI prevented Microsoft from getting such an integrated package from technology in the Flipper to have evolved into the Xbox 360...just look at how big it is.

On the GC people only complained about the lack of RAM and USB ports (for storage) to run a proper desktop OS.  Still even with 24+16MB AROS would have been great for it running off a 4GB SD card.  Wii has USB ports and anywhere from 88MB to 128MB.  Still more than enough for the 'so-called' light-weight OS that is supposed to be 'OS4'.  Also, that 'remote'-controller is superior to a mouse.

[AmigaBlitter]

There are many comments from the CELL programmers sound like this:

Programming the Cell is like programming the old Amiga. An spe unit is like the copper of the Amiga... and so on.

John Carmak, said that the PS3, is something like the old Amiga computer.

 ;-)

[AmigaBlitter]

HI T_bone


I'm happy you are here in Aorg.

I don't have a clue of how many people of AW are also Aorg users.

Anyway, we hope to have something real peace of hardware in our hands. If this are Cell Workstation, i can't find an appropriate icon to represent my happiness,

 :crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy:  :-D  :-D  :-)  :-P  ;-)  :banana:  :banana:  :banana:  :banana:  :banana:  :banana:

[bloodline]

AmigaBlitter wrote:
There are many comments from the CELL programmers sound like this:

Programming the Cell is like programming the old Amiga. An spe unit is like the copper of the Amiga... and so on.

Well, that's not right... The task the copper did is totally different to the SPE. Frankly the world the Amiga Chipset was build for simply doesn't exist anymore.

John Carmak, said that the PS3, is something like the old Amiga computer.

 ;-)

The PS3 != The Cell...  THe PS3 is an expensive device over encumbered with hardware for throwing polygons at a TV screen. It is not a general purpose computing device.

I really can't understand why people still harbour fantacies about games consoles... history has show that these devices while perform really well at running games, they are useless for general purpose computing. The strength of the Amiga was that even though it was a games machine, it was also a powerful general purpose device (this did not happen by accident, if you read the history of the thing).

[dammy]

 :horse:

Dammy

[AmigaBlitter]

The PS3 != The Cell...  THe PS3 is an expensive device over encumbered with hardware for throwing polygons at a TV screen. It is not a general purpose computing device.

The Cell can be used also as a coprocessor card. I don't mean at the Cell "only" as a primary processor. The Cell can be a secondory processor (a coprocessor) like the old amiga coprocessors.

Anyway a single Cell board has show up to 250 Gflops of computing power. Don't you think that is a dream machine for general purpose computing?

Best Regards

Thank you.

[coldfish]

Anyway a single Cell board has show up to 250 Gflops of computing power.

Someone been reading Sony Marketing BS?

Using a console as a desktop is like towing a trailer using a Formula-One.

I'm guessing we'll be having this same conversation in 5 years when PS4 comes out, boasting magic-super-wonder-chip.  The implications for the Amiga will be just the same.