Mozilla on AOS4

It's not bieng a pain... you have a point... but Amiga is an alternative... it's something people do for fun and also out of love for the platform..

developing a website for the masses is differant then developing a site for a spacific alternative segment...

[mikeymike]

@ mips_proc

And if you couldn't browse any websites whatsoever because every webmaster was as enlightened as your good self, would that annoy you?

It's only through standards compliancy that you can see *anything at all* for some websites when using say IBrowse, the standards are designed with some backwards compatibility in mind as well.

Can you provide a few URLs to websites you've designed please?

its not the pointof wether or not it annoys people... the point is IE is a standerd because there are so many people useing it...that when making a site the last concern on most peoples minds is wether or not it loads fine in alternative browsers... but since they claim IE just dosent support things that Mozilla does support it shouldnt be a problem for Mozilla/etc anyway...

I'm not provideing my work...this isnt a judgement of me... it's a judgement of IE and wether or not its a standerd... I dont think anyone is disputing that its 95% or so of the browsers...

things like Flash have become standerds for example for making online presentations... playing a flash in say Dillo or Konqueror is impossible last I checked... dosent mean flash is bad...it means they need to update their product to support newer technology..

standerds make sense...but they would make more sense if there was any form of legit competition going on wich there is not...so the standerd  falls to IE wich has the majority.

[mikeymike]

Ok, you keep rattling the same points over and over again without actually listening to anything being said, so there's not a lot of point trying to convince you.  I guess you'd have no problem with designing a site entirely in Flash either, so I guess I'll leave it there!

There is competition.  You're shutting it out because you apparently like IE so much that you want to take the choice of web browser, and therefore restrict the choice of operating system  away from the other 5%.  If you can't see the irony of your attitude when considering what website you're posting your opinion on, I guess there's no getting through to you.

I wanted to see what websites you've designed because I wanted to see if you actually do anything that only IE is capable of.

[Quixote]

mikeymike mentioned:

...I guess you'd have no problem with designing a site entirely in Flash either, so I guess I'll leave it there!

:-? You mean like this one?  Okay, the main page allows you to opt for a non-flash version, but the non-flash version gives you links to pages like this one, which do not have non-flash alternatives.  It’s a shame for them, too, because they’ve lost me as a customer, and I can’t even use their site to find an e-mail address to tell them why.

[mikeymike]

I couldn't believe it when I found that Iiyama UK's website was entirely in Flash and no alternative... trying to browse monitors and not being able to use the back button is REALLY IRRITATING, let alone having to use my 'toggle flash' script to rename the Flash plugin DLL normally named to stop it from being detected by Mozilla :-)

I hate it when browsing a website (tomshardware.com in particular) and suddenly noticing CPU usage going through the roof because of a couple of stupid Flash ads... on a 1.5GHz Athlon XP... I am pleased however that I only actually *have to* enable Flash for a website once a month, if not less than that, but maybe I have a knack for avoiding sucky websites :-)

My point is that there 'realistically' is no competition... 5% combined amongest all browsers other then IE dosent count as competition to me...

I dont see any irony about this site here... because this is a site designed for a niche...

I dont have a problem useing flash... flash is a widely accepted standerd and alot of people want their sites done in flash... so non-IE dosent support flash...dosent bother me at all....I do however not like to do sites 'entirely' in flash because it dosent allow alot of the features a browser has to be useful.. like back buttons..page spacific bookmarks... alot of little things... flash intro's... flash components...etc

It may restrict the choice of OS...and thats sad... but if a browser wants acceptance suchas Mozilla...they conform to IE...

I've seldom if ever saw a site that didnt load 'at all' in mozilla or nutscrape... sure it might look kinda lousey but they will almost all load...

[TurboLaban]

mips_proc wrote:
so non-IE dosent support flash...

It may restrict the choice of OS...and thats sad... but if a browser wants acceptance suchas Mozilla...they conform to IE...

Well, actually, most (all ?) browsers support flash as long as flash is available for the OS it runs on. Which it may not be...

You should really do something with that attitude of yours. Yes, a lot of people use IE, but that does in no way justify creating web sites that does not follow the html standards. I know you say that IE is a standard, but it's not. No matter how many people use it. IE is a browser, and any browser should follow the W3C standards. Micro$oft have a long way to go there.

If web pages are created according to the standards (W3C) it will look ok in all browsers. When I create a site, I make sure that it works acceptable in all major browsers (mozilla, opera, ie) and uses 100% valid XHTML and CSS code.

My sites will look fine in Mozilla and Opera, and quite nice in IE. The CSS support in IE is really poor...

The thing is: If you use special IE features, you will run into problems when you want to use other browsers, but if you follow the W3C standards, your site will look good on all browsers. Using correct html does not mean that it will look bad in IE. You don't have to use code that IE can't handle.

--
Glenn Hisdal

[PPCRulez]

mips_proc wrote:
My point is that there 'realistically' is no competition... 5% combined amongest all browsers other then IE dosent count as competition to me...

With the amount of people using the web today, 5% of the people using web-browsers are quite a lot of people in numbers. Do you really want to shut out a copule of million people/potential customers just because you can't be bothered to check the site with other browsers and conform to web-standards?

It's web-designers like you that destroy any potential competion to IE beacuse you are to lazy to check that your websites work in all browsers and conforms to standards.

Websites that doesn't work in Opera (which I use as my main browser nowadays) won't get any return visits from me that's for sure. I will not start up IE just to visit one site.

When talking about how slow IE is. Just try clicking the back button to go back to your previously visited site, and then try the same thing in Opera. When hitting the back button (or the back mouse-gesture) the previous page is shown directly, but in IE it takes several seconds.

[Tomas]

mips_proc wrote:
I dont see any reason to develop to 'standerds' because IE itself is a standerd... and if it works with IE and dosent work well with the others...then thats (at most) 5% who cant view the site...

You dont get it do you?? IE is no fuc*ing standard, w3c is. Its not a god damn standard when only one browser "IE" can use them legally... Even microsoft themself signed to follow the w3c standards, but do they follow them?? NO!! The reason why they do it this way, is to get rid of all other competition...

I really wonder why you even hang out on a Amiga site, when you say only users who run Microsoft products, should be able to browse the web..

[Tomas]

mips_proc wrote:
My point is that there 'realistically' is no competition... 5% combined amongest all browsers other then IE dosent count as competition to me...

Why do you think there isnt any competition? Cause ppl like you force people to use one damn browser to be able to browse your site, you are limiting their freedom to use other Operativsystems, browsers.. And also, just cause the statistics shows that 95% is IE users, dosent mean its right... Did you know that most browsers like opera, mozilla identifies as IE as default? Which is done to bypass the browser check script, that limits the site to just IE, even though it works in other browsers... Thats why...

[gnarly]

mips_proc wrote:
I dont see any reason to develop to 'standerds' because IE itself is a standerd... and if it works with IE and dosent work well with the others...then thats (at most) 5% who cant view the site...

That argument just doesnt stand up at all.

OK, so you're developing a site for the masses. Lets say you have 2 million visitors in a year. 5% of them cant access it because your site is b0rked in anything other than IE.

THATS 100,000 POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS THAT YOU'VE LOST!

[gnarly]

mips_proc wrote:
dosent mean flash is bad...it means they need to update their product to support newer technology..

But you yourself arent adopting newer technology such as xHTML and CSS-P? Hmmm...

[gnarly]

TurboLaban wrote:
My sites will look fine in Mozilla and Opera, and quite nice in IE. The CSS support in IE is really poor...

Actually, thats not entirely fair. IE6Win can do nearly everything that I require it to do perfectly. It has some absolutely infuriating bugs relating to float behaviour, but for the most part it does just fine. If I do run into trouble, a post to CSS-Discuss generally provides a solution.

IE5Mac has one of the best CSS rendering engines going. The advent of Safari means that MS are less likely to want to develop it much further now though.

[TurboLaban]

TurboLaban wrote:
My sites will look fine in Mozilla and Opera, and quite nice in IE. The CSS support in IE is really poor...

Actually, thats not entirely fair. IE6Win can do nearly everything that I require it to do perfectly. It has some absolutely infuriating bugs relating to float behaviour, but for the most part it does just fine. If I do run into trouble, a post to CSS-Discuss generally provides a solution.

IE5Mac has one of the best CSS rendering engines going. The advent of Safari means that MS are less likely to want to develop it much further now though.

Well, ok. Maybe I was a bit hard on it :-)
The problems are, as you say, most of the time possible to get around. It is a bit annoying that it doesn't draw all border styles correctly (but maybe that has changed lately. Using IE5 for Mac myself to test it). But then again, other browsers also have that problem (e.g. khtml based browsers).

Hopefully Microsoft will eventually see that open standards are a good thing, but I fear that they won't  :-(

--
Glenn Hisdal

[Quixote]

Tomas tossed in:

I really wonder why you even hang out on a Amiga site, when you say only users who run Microsoft products, should be able to browse the web..

;-) Mips_Proc hangs out here to stir up reactions like yours.  He'll deny it, but it seems a lot like trolling to me.  Granted, his approach is a bit more subtle than that of most trolls, but....