Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes

[Azryl]

I think the GREATEST advantage of Amiga/WorkBench was that it was OPEN. All of the Rom Kernals and libraries and devices were available for a programmer to read thru, digest and use or improve upon. This was a major reason Amiga really was so popular and so many great utilities/demos/games/programs/artworks were produced.

No matter which version of DOS, WorkBench or Kickstart Rom you owned, you could buy the manuals, guides and books to help you discover the power of the OS/hardware

This is the real reason I love Amiga!

Windows and MacOS can go jump, any company that keeps secrets and closes knowledge from the people paying them money for that product have to be hiding something.. incompitence maybe?  :-P

Az

[pixie]

@Waccoon:

I find that inconvinient. I use my desktop as a working folder, and keep all my program shortcuts stashed away in other places, so I expect it to work just like a normal folder. If you're worried about clutter, multiple workspaces is a must-have feature for a modern OS, especially if it expects to attract power users.

This as you should expect is a matter of personal taste, and as such it should be possible to costumize it... but still, you can have programs on the desktop 'hardlinked'.
IMO what really helps to avoid clutter is using RAM as desktop.

I don't know if mac has a buffer zone, but Windows methaphor is a bit as linux 'everything is a file' way of doing things, as there are more effective ways to do it without going on using always the same metaphor

[AmiGR]

Use or Save: unlike other operating systems, you can use current settings without saving them permanently or save them instantly and permanently - without waiting for "shutdown" for it to actually save (forget the Windows Apply/OK - both buttons do exactly the same thing - save at shutdown!)

Eh? Neither OK nor Apply do "save at shutdown" on Windows. Ok saves the settings while Apply, er, applies them until you close the preferences window or save them.

Windows not moved off screen: prevents "lost" windows, don't have to carefully move windows to avoid them being half off screen

Annoying as hell, especially at lower resolution screens. Can be patched on 3.1, it's already possible on OS4 and MorphOS.

Help key: yes this is hardware, not OS - but still, why does everybody else have F1 for Help? It seems pretty lame to me. (yes I know, for historical compatibility)

The Help key is an Apple thing, actually.

Multiple screens: each application can have its own screen with different resolution/depth and fast flipping/dragging between them

Apart from screen dragging, this is possible on every major operating system, INCLUDING Windows.

Leave out: icons can be left out on desktop without making a "shortcut"

It's not really much different from shortcuts. You just store the filename in a file and Workbench leaves it out.

Assigns: assign token to shorten long paths

You can make symbolic links on any UNIX-like system.

No virtual memory: turn off computer instead of annoying shutdown (no constant HD swapping)

This is not a feature, it's a downside, there's a good reason for virtual memory to be there, even though the Windows swapper sucks and sometimes never recovers from low-memory situations.
Virtual memory allows the application developer to load data that is by far larger than the available memory. If there IS available RAM, they will stay there, else they will be swapped out, to be loaded on demand. This is just ONE use of virtual memory, it has many. Do you like how the Amiga runs out of useful memory very very quickly, as it gets so fragmented that you can have 64MB of RAM free and 50kb largest available block? This can be fixed with VM, as the address space available isn't just the physical RAM space.

[AmiGR]

One small, but very practical feature is, that you can emulate a mouse using the keyboard. I'd love to be able to do that in Windows!

You can, enable it in the Accessibility options.

[AmiGR]

Also, a feature of WorkBench 3.1 was smart window refresh! amazing, when a window with text is displayed UNDER another window, it smart refreshes all text in that window!

SmartRefresh may appear smoother but it's slower.
Also, it's obsolete on OSes that draw stuff as 3D surfaces, OSX, (hasta la)Vista, XGL, etc.

[AmiGR]

4-(amigaos shutdown is faster) ?
I never shutdown my computer using windows buttons...that's is for lamer users
also I have disabled scandisk or checkdisk to not work after a bad shutdown
I see that lamer windows users still don't know that

Nice... 1337 user... I've seen so many Windows installations get trashed because of bad shutdowns that I wouldn't advise that at all...

[Waccoon]

Disagree here: First of all, as said, the main reason for shut down is the disk cache. Also you're mixing up virtual memory with demand paging, that's what's doing the disk swapping. Virtual memory is how you get memory protection.

Disk cache and disk buffers are different things.

The main reason for the long shutdown times are disk indexes, which are rebuit every time the system shuts down.  I've noticed that the more files I have on my desktop, the longer Windows takes to shut down.  If I delete a few gigs of working files, Windows shuts down a LOT faster.

Also, memory mapping is a requirement for proper virtual memory, but is not itself VM.

mra500:  Please read carefully. I already said I know it can be disabled on Windows. But I dare you to run Windows without virtual memory and run all the applications you usually run - see how well that works. (crash!)

Yeah, Windows expects VM, so if you turn it off, it will get VERY unstable.  Having VM is not the problem -- it's how the technology is used.  AmigaOS programmers are obviously more aware of memory limits than Windows hackers.

mra500:  Example: can you open Word, Excel, Explorer each on its own screen with its own resolution?

Why would you want to?  Look at what Apple does with its virtual texture desktop.  That's the direction Amiga should be heading.  Scrolling screens and virtual workspaces are a snap to add to the system once you have that nice, scalable graphics engine working.

mra500:  Only a lamer wouldn't know that you can't install unapproved custom software or do custom configs on an office work computer.

Good point.  I forget that people don't really have control over the computer when I recommend that they download a particular tool.  Today's computers really need a new security model.

uncharted:  I've always preferred the name Workbench to AmigaOS. There really wasn't a proper name for the whole system, it was sorta Kickstart+AmigaDOS+Workbench.

Workbench is what most people see, if they don't really know how to use the shell.

One thing I really, really liked about AmigaOS is that it wasn't afraid to make the shell available.  I don't understand why there has to be such a hard line between the shell and the GUI, so long as people aren't forced to use one way of doing things.  I hate that Linux makes me use the shell all the time (even when distros insist you don't have to), and everything else wants you to click click click all day.  Everybody else is into "integration", but Workbench isn't afraid to show you what's underneath.  ;-)

mra500:  When I have to copy text between two or more windows on Windows or Mac, it's a pain in the ass because I have to size or tile the windows so that they don't keep overlapping each other, blocking my access to the text I want to cut&paste. On Amiga, if I see text in a window under another window, I can copy it without the window coming to front and overlapping the window I want to paste in. (whew!)

I just ran into that problem today!  Now I see what you mean.  Duh.

In Windows, "Always on top" seems like a kludge.

Azryl:  No matter which version of DOS, WorkBench or Kickstart Rom you owned, you could buy the manuals, guides and books to help you discover the power of the OS/hardware

Yeah, you can't get any books on programming Windows or MacOS these days.  ;-)

The REAL problem is that Microsoft just keeps changing things all the time.  They just can't figure out what they want to do.

Pixie:  I don't know if mac has a buffer zone, but Windows methaphor is a bit as linux 'everything is a file' way of doing things, as there are more effective ways to do it without going on using always the same metaphor

Old Macs do have a buffer zone, where the files existed in certain places on a device and only showed up on the desktop.  If you moved floppy items onto the desktop, ejecting the floppy would clear all the icons for things stored on the disk.  Newer Macs work more like Windows, and have files stored in a "special" folder in "Home".

It would be nice if everything actually was a file on Unix.  It isn't true at all.  FTP is a prime example of this; you have to use special programs to shuffle "files" around, instead of good old shell commands.  I wish Plan9 had gotten more attention.  UNIX is powerful, but it still seems old to me, surviving only because it is better than Windows, underneath.  Being "Good Enough" or "Better than Windows" (take your pick) seems to be the only real qualification for an OS these days.  If Linux fans are so rebellious, why can't they stand to break UNIX tradition and shuffle off compatibility with 15-year-old tools?

That's why I want a new Amiga.  I'm tired of everybody just starting with UNIX and just making some new Crystal(TM)(R)(C)(FU) icons for it.  Gimme a new shell to replace Bash, and I'll be impressed.

[AmiGR]

This reminds me of another "Amiga advantage": open files can be copied. In Windows if a file is open, it is locked and can't be copied.

It can be copied on both Amiga and Windows. Can't be deleted/moved on either.

[Waccoon]

If it's locked in read mode, the file can be copied.  If it's locked in write mode, it cannot.  That's the way an OS is supposed to work.  AmigaOS bends this rule a bit since it doesn't really have the ability to enforce it.

The problem is that nobody should open and lock a file for an extended period of time.  The file should be opened when needed, updated, and then closed, allowing the OS disk buffers to handle all the dirty work.  It makes it easier for the OS to handle the filesystem efficiently, too, and reduces the likliness of open links not being closed properly.

[AmiGR]

Sorry, yes, I just don't think that files locked for writing should be readable by anything else at all (>>corrupted data).

BTW, I have tried turning swapping off in Windows. It does not make them unstable, you just run out of memory WAAAAY too quickly.

[Aminux]

  What i like about the AmigaOS is that it is Fast,Small and Simple.Just like every OS should be! :-D

[Legerdemain]

[EDIT]: Just realised all of this had been adressed already... so this post is rather unecessesary. Oh. Well. Anyways.

shift delete, shift cursor keys. Really annoys me when I'm not on amiga and I cant shift delete. Quick simple easy and very usefull

However, I have had the problem of rather often, by accident, deleting quite long lines written in the shell, ed or wherever that very combination, shift+delete can be used.

virtual memory can be disabled on windows but someone here point that no virtual memory is a workbench advantage

However, according to many people that have tried this, and according to my own experiences, this isn't really recommended to do. Not only does Windows (XP, in this case) start to behave really odd when the memory is running short, but also I've encountered many many crashes of the system. XP and many applications seems to have been designed without ever considering the possible consequences of the end-user not having the virtual memory turned on.

you can create your own reolutions on windows on any new nvidia or ati card but someone here point that on workbench is possible

How do you do that? I have never heard of the possibility! I'd love to do that very thing! Especially since I often use emulators, and have to either scale the graphics into some ugly non-perfect pixel aspect ratio or add a filter to make the graphics look smooth. I would LOVE to make a perfect SNES sreenmode, and a perfect Genesis screenmode, and a perfect whatever screenmode, instead of playing with filters or ugly scaling. [Edit: just noticed your recommendations, I'll check them out]

surfing through screens is also possible on windows pressing ALT-TAB

...but it is everything but fast...

I never shutdown my computer using windows buttons...that's is for lamer users

Or, rather, people that really care about the data stored on their harddrives? I've managed to crash the entire filesystem on a partition by shutting down Windows by simply flicking the powerswitch.

[mr_a500]

AmiGR wrote:
Eh? Neither OK nor Apply do "save at shutdown" on Windows. Ok saves the settings while Apply, er, applies them until you close the preferences window or save them.

Believe me, I've spent a lot of time testing this so I know what I'm talking about here. Do a test for yourself. Open a Windows setting (Windows background for example). Make a change and click "Apply". Now click "Cancel". It should revert back to original because you clicked "Cancel" right? Wrong - but that's OK because it shouldn't have saved right? Wrong! It is saved (reboot Windows to find out). Clicking "OK" does EXACTLY the same thing - it only prevents you from having to click "Cancel" to exit the settings window.

Now for "saving at shutdown" - how do I know this? Test like this: make a settings change and click "OK". It should be saved right away if it doesn't save at shutdown right? Now turn off Windows or have a crash or something to prevent shutdown from occurring. When Windows starts again you'll find that your setting change is not there.

[AmiGR]

Believe me, I've spent a lot of time testing this so I know what I'm talking about here. Do a test for yourself. Open a Windows setting (Windows background for example). Make a change and click "Apply". Now click "Cancel". It should revert back to original because you clicked "Cancel" right? Wrong - but that's OK because it shouldn't have saved right? Wrong! It is saved (reboot Windows to find out). Clicking "OK" does EXACTLY the same thing - it only prevents you from having to click "Cancel" to exit the settings window.

Weird, either it worked differently on older versions of Windows or I was under some illusion. :-P

Now for "saving at shutdown" - how do I know this? Test like this: make a settings change and click "OK". It should be saved right away if it doesn't save at shutdown right? Now turn off Windows or have a crash or something to prevent shutdown from occurring. When Windows starts again you'll find that your setting change is not there.

Ah, that's what you meant. Well, that's normal, settings are generally saved on shutdown for a few, very good, reasons. First of all, the system is not supposed to be turned off without a shutdown. Secondly, if a crash was caused by a certain setting, it will be reset to it's previous state. From the user's point of view, it saves it instantly, the user shouldn't turn the machine off without a shutdown.

[Tomas]

3246251196 wrote:
ill have WB 3.0 with my A1200 when it comes.

wonder if i can get AmigaOS3.1 on a 3.0 ROM Chip ??

WB3.1 works just fine on the 3.0 kickstart. You will only need to uprade with amigaos 3.5 and higher

[mr_a500]

AmiGR wrote:
..the user shouldn't turn the machine off without a shutdown.

Yes I definitely agree with this, but I've had many occasions where I spent 20 minutes or more making lots of settings changes, only to have an unrelated application crash (many hours after the settings change) and cause the "blue screen of death" - meaning I had to make all those damn setting changes again!

After those wonderful experiences, I now reboot Windows after making lots of settings changes to make sure they actually ARE saved. (... until they slowly and mysteriously revert back to MS defaults!)

This brings me to yet another major "Amiga advantage": preferences/program settings are stored in only a one or two locations and can be easily backed up and restored. In Windows, settings are stored in the Registry and many different locations (10 or more!) and are impossible to back up and restore. There are some "hidden" backup programs but they only backup very few preferences. Backing up Registry keys is a nightmare. (don't debate me on this point - I have MAJOR experience attempting to backup Windows & program preferences!)

Waccoon wrote:
Why would you want to? Look at what Apple does with its virtual texture desktop. That's the direction Amiga should be heading. Scrolling screens and virtual workspaces are a snap to add to the system once you have that nice, scalable graphics engine working.

I already explained why in my response to srg86 (on page 2). But hey, if Apple has a better solution then that's great. I don't insist on doing everything the "Amiga way". If there's something better then I'll go for that. :-)