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Offline coldfish

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2006, 07:54:07 AM »
Unfortunately, my clearest memories of WB are of v1.3 on an 1meg A500, it was ugly, slow as hell and difficult to navigate.  I think this is what the majority of past Amiga (specifically A500) users will remeber.  Not everyone went on to own big box expanded machines.

Later, I had an A1200 running 3.1 and a PC running win 95, the PC blew the 1200 away for versatility, usefulness and speed, the Amiga was more fun, though it could be a real pain in the ass if the machine crashed during an install, which happened surprisingly often with aging floppies and drives.

For me, comparing my WB experience on both these machines to modern OSes like XP, OSX or Linux running KDE and I seriously wonder why anyone would torture themselves?
 
I have used WB3.9 under emulation, (with Picasso Gfx ect) and it is quite nice but lacks the feel of cohesion of a modern "cling-wrapped" OS like XP or OSX, and is ultimately more a novelty than anything else.  

Having said that if OS4 got ported to cheap hardware I'd be on it like flies on this guy; :horse:
 

Offline pVC

Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2006, 09:07:52 AM »
"3-surfing through screens is also possible on windows pressing ALT-TAB"

But can you configure it to change the screens immediately? I think it's much, much faster to switch to right screen, when you can see the actual screen when browsing with amiga-m than trying to figure out from small icons and text which is the right program to jump with alt-tab.

As said before, I love too the shift/alt/ctrl + arrow keys/del/backspace behaviour on Amiga. It's so quick to modify url in browser with shift-del for example... than paint wanted area with mouse or removing chars by pressing del long time etc. And getting wanted shell command from buffer... you don't have to browse all used commands with up arrow, you just can enter couple of first chars from wanted command and then press shift-up. This I'd really like to linux etc systems too!

Other thing is that different windows won't take too much space on screen. There isn't that much useless stuff on windows like on Windows :) Like menus visible on every window and too much extra space here and there...

And datatypes are great IMHO. I don't know if there's yet similar system on other platforms, but it just great that you can add support for new formats for several programs by installing one datatype. Remember the PNG issue? With datatypes Windows's browsers would have worked with png years earlier :) Amiga's browsers had support for it way before Windows :)

I also like that enter accepts the current input, not the whole window ;) Like in settings on Windows... enter means OK and closes the whole thing. I like Amiga's way when enter leads you to next option. It's logical from text editors for example.. you write line, press enter and you'll be on next line. It doesn't save all the changes and close the editor :)

And disk requesters and volume names on Amiga are just great. You can for example take CD out while reading it. Requester pops up and asks you insert that particular CD in drive, but you can insert some other CD, do the stuff with it, remove it and then insert the original CD on drive and original task continues. Try it with Windows for example and get in the blue screen h*ll :)

Daily MorphOS user and Amiga active.
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2006, 11:41:28 AM »
"DEVS:" and "ENV:" were brilliant.

I also like the fact that AmigaOS uses volumes (instead of the mount points like UNIX does), and actual allows you to use NAMES for them.  I always get my CD-ROMs confused, and it would be soooo much easier to just name them "CD:" and "CDR:"

The only drawback is that the colon is not very friendly to Internet connections, where it defines the protocol.  Then again, Macs used to use colons as directory separators so you could use slashes in filenames (!), and Apple eventually made the migration to slashes.

All I care about is I don't have to worry about "../" causing problems.  I hate having to do filtering on all my paths when writing web scripts.  It would be so much nicer to just use "forum:", "forum-tpl:", "forum-pics:", and so on.  Security would be a snap.

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mra500:  No virtual memory: turn off computer instead of annoying shutdown (no constant HD swapping)

Against my better judgement, I agree.  Virtual memory used to be a crutch.  Then, somebody got the idea of using it to "free" memory, which is dumb because maybe data shouldn't be in memory in the first place.  Read it off the drive, then put it right back, so you have two copies.  Great.  Then, game programmers figured if they allocate tons of memory, it will force Windows to swap out EVERYTHING to VM, giving them the maximum amound of physical memory.  That screws up background processes, causes swapping hell when you quit the game, and lots of other problems.  I hate it when games allocate 900MB+ of memory when my system has 512.

As for shutting down, that's because of buffers.  Windows is TERRIBLE with buffers, as it takes forever to write them.  If you read a Flash card, it can take minutes if not hours for the buffers to be cleared, and if you take the card out, Windows will still complain even if the buffers are empty.  It's sickening.

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mra500:  Window depth

Oh my God... I HATE the way AmigaOS does it!  It seemed so lovely back in 1988 when the only alternative I had was a crappy Mac, but today I simply cannot stand it.  It should be possible to move windows wihtout selecting them, which would have the same effect, or being able to "chain" windows together into groups.  I'd love to be able to have a command prompt and a GUI view for a directory at the same time, in the same window.  The Windows shell is braindead.

Then again, I hate tabbed browsing and use the taskbar to manage a dozen windows at once.  Windows doesn't move things around on the taskbar randomly like other OSes will.  I'm a Windows taskbar junkie.  If only I could drag-and-drop to the taskbar (WTF, MS?!  ADD THAT!!!)

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bilko9070:  I love the Amigas Ram disk!.. I wonder if any other os has such a thing..

There is a RAM disk driver for Windows, but it's a fixed disk size, so it's not that useful.  Of course, buffers and caching make the RAM disk less useful than it used to be.

The big plus would be that there wouldn't be so many damn temp files all over the place.  When I fix someone's computer, the first thing I do is delete the 300+MB of orphaned temp files in "%userprofile%/Local Settings/temp".  :-)  I also hate it when temp files are actually working files.  If a file is going to be open and locked, it should be in the same folder as the application, not in an unstable location, like a temp folder.

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mra500: Yes, I like the RAM disk and right-click for menu too. I would have mentioned the "menu at top of screen instead of on windows" as an advantage, but Mac has this too.

I find it awful that every OS has to have a specific way of doing things, instead of letting you choose.  Where the menus are located is a matter of preference, and focing you to use them either at the top of the screen or on each window is dumb.  Apple is really, really bad at forcing you into a paricular way of thinking:  The Jobs Way(TM).

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mra500:  I hate a lot of things about Windows, but one of the things that annoys me most (after the registry, of course) is the priority Windows has for screen redraws. A 1989 33Mhz Amiga might be a bit slow at screen redraws now and then, but it is absolutely pathetic for a 2006 3Ghz Windows computer with monster graphics card to regularly leave the screen half-drawn while it goes and does something in the background!

X Windows has the same problem, actually.  Responsiveness isn't a strong suit in many modern OSes.  Even BeOS has driven me nuts a few times.

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Lando:  If for some reason you want a 946 x 573 Workbench screen, you can do it, but if you want a 946 x 573 Windows screen, you're stuck.

Two words:  vector graphics.  It's unforgivable how we're still using so much bitmapped graphics these days, especially on web pages, where the display is *supposed* to be ambiguous, and therefore you're not supposed to hard-code for any one resolution.  In my opinion, the WWW needs to modernize itself about 15 years, and REST and XSL are not the way to do it.

I find the filtering is to blame.  Most video cards have pretty lousy filtering.  It'd be nice if someone made a video card with an optional hardware-based SuperEagle filter.  That would ROCK.

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Laser:  2-you can create your own reolutions on windows on any new nvidia or ati card but someone here point that on workbench is possible

Yeah, it's a hardware thing, not software.  Multiple resolutions was fine for TVs running off a composite signal, but is not very friendly for HDTV or LCD displays.  Better filters are what's needed, so everything isn't so damn blurry.

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Laser:  maybe you have a pc with an old gfx card? or
maybe you are a newbie on emulator zone?

Many emulators don't have a very good GUI framework.  In fact, most emulators have a terrible GUI.

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Laser:  Windows XP SP2 = 10, Workbench 3.9 = 0

I appreciate AmigaOS for its design principles, not for its technology.  That's why I tell people I want a new OS that works like Workbench, not a refactored AmigaOS.
 

Offline pixie

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2006, 01:04:35 PM »
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itix wrote:
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Leave out: icons can be left out on desktop without making a "shortcut"


Mmhh.. I dont see difference.


Workbench methaphor is that its desktop is used as a buffer zone, not as a actuall place where you copy things over...


pixie- writing from a paradise called Portugal
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2006, 01:09:03 PM »
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Workbench methaphor is that its desktop is used as a buffer zone, not as a actuall place where you copy things over...

I find that inconvinient.  I use my desktop as a working folder, and keep all my program shortcuts stashed away in other places, so I expect it to work just like a normal folder.  If you're worried about clutter, multiple workspaces is a must-have feature for a modern OS, especially if it expects to attract power users.
 

Offline mr_a500Topic starter

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2006, 01:10:44 PM »
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I also like the fact that AmigaOS uses volumes (instead of the mount points like UNIX does), and actual allows you to use NAMES for them.


Yes, I was going to add that to my list, but was unsure if other operating systems have it. Names for volumes is much better than the A: to Z: on Windows.

Window depth:
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Oh my God... I HATE the way AmigaOS does it!


For the Amiga window depth to be really great, you need a good "Click to Front" program. Without this, it is a bit annoying trying to find the depth gadget if it is under another window. I like double-clicking a window to bring it to front, but single-clicking to make active (like for cut&paste between two windows).

If somebody knows of a piece of software for Windows or Mac that can do this exact thing, please post a link.

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The big plus would be that there wouldn't be so many damn temp files all over the place. When I fix someone's computer, the first thing I do is delete the 300+MB of orphaned temp files in "%userprofile%/Local Settings/temp". I also hate it when temp files are actually working files. If a file is going to be open and locked, it should be in the same folder as the application, not in an unstable location, like a temp folder.


Exactly! I agree with you 100% on that one. I remember running out of disk space at work when I should have had plenty. I checked the many "temp" folders and I had 1Gb of temp files! The next annoying thing was trying to delete a block of files - if one file is in use, the delete stops instead of deleting all selected files NOT in use.

This reminds me of another "Amiga advantage": open files can be copied. In Windows if a file is open, it is locked and can't be copied.

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I appreciate AmigaOS for its design principles, not for its technology. That's why I tell people I want a new OS that works like Workbench, not a refactored AmigaOS.


Yes, exactly! That is the whole point of this thread. I wanted to list the great design principles and concepts in the Amiga Workbench that should be in all modern OSes, but still aren't. It seems some people (not you Waccoon :-)) didn't read my first post carefully and think I'm saying that everyone in the world should be using a patched and hacked 1993 OS running on 80's hardware for all their business needs.

Offline uncharted

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2006, 02:11:57 PM »
Quote

DonnyEMU wrote:
This is totally a useless thread because none of these things are "unique" anymore. They exist elsewhere even on windows.. My F1 key says HELP on it :-)


Then why post to it?  :-?
 

Offline uncharted

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2006, 02:32:24 PM »
Quote

Waccoon wrote:
"DEVS:" and "ENV:" were brilliant.


Indeed.  It is that simple modular mentaility that got me hooked on AmigaOS.

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The only drawback is that the colon is not very friendly to Internet connections, where it defines the protocol.  Then again, Macs used to use colons as directory separators so you could use slashes in filenames (!), and Apple eventually made the migration to slashes.


Not quite, the colons are still there. There is a bodge whereby they are converted between colon ans slash depending upon which side is looking at it.  I can't remember which one is the native HFS+ character though.


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That's why I tell people I want a new OS that works like Workbench, not a refactored AmigaOS.


Why?  Workbench itself was never really anything to write home about, hence why Scalos and DOpus are so popular.  Things like those you mention above were part of the underlying OS not Workbench itself (Workbench was just another program)
 

Offline mr_a500Topic starter

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2006, 03:14:53 PM »
For the purposes of this thread Workbench = AmigaOS.

"AmigaOS" makes me have bad memories of 3.5/3.9 (when the term was introduced). I have always known the entire operating system as Workbench, so this is what I like to use. (yes, loadwb loads Workbench which is running on AmigaDOS)

Offline srg86

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2006, 03:32:58 PM »
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mr_a500 wrote:
Multiple screens: each application can have its own screen with different resolution/depth and fast flipping/dragging between them


I don't see the point myself personally

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mr_a500 wrote:
Window depth: windows don't move to the front automatically when you click on them and they have depth gadgets to move to front or back (I LOVE this feature! Automatic click to front on other OSes makes me sick!)


I hate this behavior peronality. I just want to grab a window and bring it to the front.

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mr_a500 wrote:
Use or Save: unlike other operating systems, you can use current settings without saving them permanently or save them instantly and permanently - without waiting for "shutdown" for it to actually save (forget the Windows Apply/OK - both buttons do exactly the same thing - save at shutdown!)


Agreed, it's much nicer. Still the apply button can be handy so maybe OK/Apply and save perhapse, or just have it the amiga way.

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mr_a500 wrote:
Animated Icons: one image for normal, one for selected


Agreed, I like this.

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mr_a500 wrote:
All icons can be changed: separate info file for icons meaning every single icon can be changed


I find the info thing annoying personally. Executable file's icon are stored internally on windows BTW.

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mr_a500 wrote:
Assigns: assign token to shorten long paths


I like these and *NIX symlinks.

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mr_a500 wrote:
No virtual memory: turn off computer instead of annoying shutdown (no constant HD swapping)


Disagree here: First of all, as said, the main reason for shut down is the disk cache. Also you're mixing up virtual memory with demand paging, that's what's doing the disk swapping. Virtual memory is how you get memory protection. Lack of memory protection is one of the biggest deficientcies of AmigaOS (there is a reason for it, it was written for the 68000 that doesn't support it other than user and supervisor mode).

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mr_a500 wrote:
No keyboard/mouse buffering: actions not stored when system busy - avoids actions happening later when you don't want them (software dependent on Amiga, not OS - of Amiga programs, I think only IBrowse buffers - and I wish it didn't)


Not always OS dependant, the PC keyboard its self has someting like a 16 byte buffer in it.

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mr_a500 wrote:
Standard installer with readable text:  you can read exactly what the install will do, edit it if you want or install manually (with other OSes, you don't know and have to trust it not to trash your system)


This is good, though I've never had any trouble with the windows method.

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mr_a500 wrote:
Help key: yes this is hardware, not OS - but still, why does everybody else have F1 for Help? It seems pretty lame to me. (yes I know, for historical compatibility)


doesn't bother me.

Anyway, the thing I liked about AmigaOS/Workbench was very simple to use and understand with simple modular concepts. This is where other OS developers should look at it. My dad could understand the amiga easily but has difficulties with windows (though he's getting better with use).
 

Offline mr_a500Topic starter

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2006, 04:01:13 PM »
Quote
Lamer wrote:
well I see that some ppl here don't know very well windows features or gfx cards features or

1-virtual memory can be disabled on windows but someone here point that no virtual memory is a workbench advantage


Please read carefully. I already said I know it can be disabled on Windows. But I dare you to run Windows without virtual memory and run all the applications you usually run - see how well that works. (crash!) This isn't one of my main points anyway - I know virtual memory can be useful if properly implemented.

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3-surfing through screens is also possible on windows pressing ALT-TAB


Again, read carefully. I said "every application can run on its own screen". Example: can you open Word, Excel, Explorer each on its own screen with its own resolution? Can you drag those screens?? Is the flipping to different resolutions fast (less than 1/10 sec)??

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4-(amigaos shutdown is faster) ????
I never shutdown my computer using windows buttons...that's is for lamer users
also I have disabled scandisk or checkdisk to not work after a bad shutdown
I see that lamer windows users still don't know that


You just try that at a large software consulting firm - see how far that gets you. My examples of shutdown problems were at work. Only a lamer wouldn't know that you can't install unapproved custom software or do custom configs on an office work computer.

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5-the only adantege of amigaOS is that boot faster that any windows version


Please read carefully for other advantages listed.

Offline uncharted

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2006, 04:01:56 PM »
Quote

mr_a500 wrote:
For the purposes of this thread Workbench = AmigaOS.

"AmigaOS" makes me have bad memories of 3.5/3.9 (when the term was introduced). I have always known the entire operating system as Workbench, so this is what I like to use. (yes, loadwb loads Workbench which is running on AmigaDOS)


I understand what you mean, my reply was specific to Wacoon's post where he makes a differentiation between the two.

I've always preferred the name Workbench to AmigaOS.  There really wasn't a proper name for the whole system, it was sorta Kickstart+AmigaDOS+Workbench.
 

Offline mr_a500Topic starter

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2006, 04:32:23 PM »
Quote
srg86 wrote:
I don't see the point myself personally


Well, the thing I like about running each application on its own screen is that you can have say 10 applications running, all maximized, and still have the desktop clear for any other windows you want to open.

Yes, in Windows you've got the task bar and can switch that way or with task manager or minimize all to see desktop. But what if you get a popup requester in one application? In Windows, depending on the requester, you could be stuck until you answer the requester or some windows might not minimize. In Amiga, you could have requesters open in each application and still quickly flip between them. Not only that, but you can have images each on their own screen in their own resolution. I regularly select a bunch of images to display and quickly flip between them. In other OSes, images are in windows and it's awkward moving between them. But, maybe there are fancy image display programs I don't know about.

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I hate this behavior peronality. I just want to grab a window and bring it to the front.


I know what you mean, but as I said before, you need a click to front program. Then you double-click to bring the window to front. When I have to copy text between two or more windows on Windows or Mac, it's a pain in the ass because I have to size or tile the windows so that they don't keep overlapping each other, blocking my access to the text I want to cut&paste. On Amiga, if I see text in a window under another window, I can copy it without the window coming to front and overlapping the window I want to paste in. (whew!)

Offline Agafaster

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2006, 04:34:15 PM »
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I've always preferred the name Workbench to AmigaOS. There really wasn't a proper name for the whole system, it was sorta Kickstart+AmigaDOS+Workbench.


I have to say that AmigaOS doesnt trip of the tongue like AmigaDOS, but that doesnt describe the whole thing, but neither does Workbench.

I guess 'Amiga' will have to do ! (which also covers the HW, btw...)
\\"New Bruce here will be teaching Machiavelli, Bentham, Locke, Hobbes, Sutcliffe, Bradman, Lindwall, Miller, Hassett and Benaud.\\"
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Offline uncharted

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2006, 05:39:42 PM »
It's a bit nicer than "Amiga ROM Operating System and Libraries" that comes up on 3.1 :-)
 

Offline Azryl

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Re: Amiga Workbench advantages over other OSes
« Reply #44 from previous page: April 04, 2006, 11:05:36 PM »
I think the GREATEST advantage of Amiga/WorkBench was that it was OPEN. All of the Rom Kernals and libraries and devices were available for a programmer to read thru, digest and use or improve upon. This was a major reason Amiga really was so popular and so many great utilities/demos/games/programs/artworks were produced.

No matter which version of DOS, WorkBench or Kickstart Rom you owned, you could buy the manuals, guides and books to help you discover the power of the OS/hardware

This is the real reason I love Amiga!

Windows and MacOS can go jump, any company that keeps secrets and closes knowledge from the people paying them money for that product have to be hiding something.. incompitence maybe?  :-P

Az
Completely useless? I can always be used as a bad example  :lol: