Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?  (Read 4119 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline da9000Topic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2005
  • Posts: 922
    • Show only replies by da9000
Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« on: February 12, 2006, 11:47:11 AM »
Hi there,

I have an A500 and the standard (external) power supply makes a humming noise. Now, I didn't notice this before until tonight. I could have been happening before, but I think I would have noticed. Yesterday I replaced the burned 3/4Amp 250V (part 233) fuse inside with a new one, and closed it up. Could this have caused this humming noise?

Just curious what others' experiences are.
 

Offline motorollin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2005
  • Posts: 8669
    • Show only replies by motorollin
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2006, 12:12:00 PM »
Sounds like it is either (a) overloaded or (b) the plates in the transformer are starting to vibrate, which means the PSU is on its way out.

If you're just using it with an A500, then it's probably not (a), so you should replace the PSU.

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline da9000Topic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2005
  • Posts: 922
    • Show only replies by da9000
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2006, 12:23:41 PM »
Thanks for the answer Moto. I forgot to mention that the humming happens when I turn it on, even when not connected to the A500. So definately not overloaded. The voltages register fine on my volt meter.

I wonder if it could be the "seating" of the transformer when I put everything back together. I'll open it up tomorrow and double check.

Could you explain why the plates on the transformer would vibrate? The transformer seemed fine when I opened it to do the soldering of the new fuse.

Thanks
 

Offline Karlos

  • Sockologist
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2002
  • Posts: 16879
  • Country: gb
  • Thanked: 5 times
    • Show only replies by Karlos
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2006, 12:29:59 PM »
Quote

da9000 wrote:

Could you explain why the plates on the transformer would vibrate? The transformer seemed fine when I opened it to do the soldering of the new fuse.

Thanks


They have an oscillating magnetic field passing through them. This exerts a force on the plates. Once the bonding between them starts to give up, they begin to yield to it.
int p; // A
 

Offline da9000Topic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2005
  • Posts: 922
    • Show only replies by da9000
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2006, 12:34:42 PM »
Hi Karlos,

Thanks for the reply. But can you tell me then what happens and how long before "it's dead" ? Will I be able to move the plates with my fingers or is the movement too small to really notice?

In other words, when should I start looking for a new transformer for my A500 power supply? (also, anyone know what kind of transformer I should be looking for? on the back it says: P/N: 312503-01)

Thanks guys
 

Offline motorollin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2005
  • Posts: 8669
    • Show only replies by motorollin
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2006, 12:55:23 PM »
Quote
da9000 wrote:I forgot to mention that the humming happens when I turn it on, even when not connected to the A500. So definately not overloaded. The voltages register fine on my volt meter.

Ok so not overloaded then :-)
Quote

I wonder if it could be the "seating" of the transformer when I put everything back together. I'll open it up tomorrow and double check.

Possible I suppose. Check the positioning and seating of all the components just in case. If it's still doing it even when not connected to the A500 then there is definitely a fault with the transformer.
Quote

Could you explain why the plates on the transformer would vibrate? The transformer seemed fine when I opened it to do the soldering of the new fuse.

See Karlos' explanation above :-) The weaknesses in the structure of the transformer would probably not be visible to the naked eye, i.e. you wouldn't be able to move the plates around. As for how long it will last, well that depends on the extent of the damage, the load on the transformer, quality of build.......

It will die eventually, so I would just replace it now.

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline da9000Topic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2005
  • Posts: 922
    • Show only replies by da9000
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2006, 01:05:07 PM »
Ok,

I opened it up again. One of the main caps was a bit loose and it discharged (almost in my face). I soldered it properly. There's still some humming, although a bit less. I can't tell if the transformer is bad or not, but it "seems fine".  I got another A500 power supply, much lighter (has no transformer inside!). It also makes a slight humming noise, but it's REALLY hard to hear (it made me realize which of my ears is more sensitive :)

Forgot to mention: the humming is DEFINATELY coming from the transformer. Easiest way to test this is: lift it with your hand (wear an insulated glove first!), and if the humming dies down (due to the hand absorbing the vibrations), then that's the cuplrit!

Anyways, we'll see how long thing guy will last I guess..
I just hope it doesn't take my A500 down with it!

Now on to find out why my A500 rev.6a board green screens even though all the custom chips are OK.
 

Offline Oliver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2005
  • Posts: 803
    • Show only replies by Oliver
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2006, 02:00:44 PM »
Hi,

How are you discharging your power supply components?  Improper discharging can cause electric shock, burning, and component damage.  People often wear a pair of insulated gloves, and discharge the relavent nodes accross a 10MOhm (or so) high power resistor.  Make sure you leave sufficent time for current drain.  Some people have hooked up LED's to sense when this is complete, but it's really up to you, so long as you know you and your equipment are safe.

When you talk about handling your live transformer with bare skin, I am somewhat concerned for your safety.  Are you sure you know how to handle live electrical equipment?  There are often exposed mains terminals accessible to your touch, within power supplies.  I really wouldn't suggest servicing live equipment, unless you really know what you are doing, and it's really necessary.  If you absolutely must, then you should use proper safety equipment to do so.

For your power supply, it may be easier, and even cheaper, to replace the whole thing, than to replace the transformer.

The lighter power supply is a switch mode supply.  Transformers use Faraday's Law, and a ratio of wire turns, to accomplish a voltage step down.  Switch modes use frequent switching, and low pass filtering to average the voltage output.  Switch mode supplies are used a lot these days, but I seem to recall reading that the A500's switch mode supplies were less reliable, and had lower output than their alternative.  Not sure if that's true, just thought I'd mention it.

As a side note, a lot of old transformers actually used rust as the insulation between the laminations, as it was so cheap and easy to coat the steel plates, and the rust would also bond the plates together.  However, this was not very good for efficiency, or longevity.  I don't know when this was phased out, though I expect it's not current practice.

Some transformers actually whine/hum when they are new.  You can see this in some CRT TV's.  Aging monitors also suffer from this.
Good good study, day day up!
 

Offline da9000Topic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2005
  • Posts: 922
    • Show only replies by da9000
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2006, 02:26:23 PM »
Hey Oliver,

thanks for your extended reply. To start off, I didn't try to discharge any of the equipment. I was inspecting it and when I moved one of the capacitors, I saw a discharge, and then noticed the connection was broken. I did test the caps voltage before I worked on them though :)

Secondly, yes, I'm very careful about the live wires and wearing some protective equipment is recommended.

As for replacing the whole PSU, well yes that's an option, but if I can fix it, I'd rather do that, so I can learn a thing or two. The unexamined live isn't worth living ;)

As for the 2nd power supply, yes, it's a switching power supply, and yes, I noticed the power rating is a bit lower.

Finally, the info on the transformers (rust, whinning/humming when new, etc), was great! I had no idea. Thanks for that in-depth info, it was perfect! If you have any other such tid bits, please tell :)

If you want to take a stab at this:
How do I determine if the transformer is dying or the whine/hum is normal?
Same for the whole PSU? Maybe it is OK after all. I'd like to learn if there's some easy steps to check the "health" status of said PSU.

Thanks again!
 

Offline Oliver

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Sep 2005
  • Posts: 803
    • Show only replies by Oliver
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2006, 02:55:58 PM »
Whine/hum is never good in a transformer, and if it is increasing, then yes, the transformer is on the way out.  The mechanical vibration is a form of energy loss, and any rust between laminations also increases hysteresis loss.  

It is possible to test a PSU's output (this is done to rate a supply), but what is probably more of concern is the reliability of the device, which I can't help you with (this is a tricky area, and most people deal with it by destroying stuff once it starts to look a bit dodgy).  If you were to test the PSU's output for variable loads, and were able to show that it performed significantly worse than rated, then it would indicate a poor condition.  Apart from that, I don't know if I can really offer much help.

Quote

da9000 wrote:
...thanks for your extended reply...


No problem at all.  Happy to share.  I also like to mess around with whatever I can get my hands on, just to learn something.  I'm glad to know you are also doing so, safely.  ;-)

Good luck.
Good good study, day day up!
 

Offline mr_a500

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2004
  • Posts: 865
    • Show only replies by mr_a500
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2006, 03:15:58 PM »
My A500 power supply started to hiss and whine about 3 years ago. It was pretty quiet and high pitched at first (similar to the barely audible sound of a CRT being on). As time went on, it got much louder and I noticed that the hissing sound matched the pattern of HD usage. I suspected that maybe I was overloading, but I didn't have much attached and I read that the A500 supply should have plenty for what I was using. I started searching for a backup in case the thing died on me (it was 15 years old, after all).

Anyway, after about a year - without any change in power usage - the hissing stopped and I've been using it ever since (every single day, average of 3 hours/day).

Offline ckillerh3

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Dec 2004
  • Posts: 179
    • Show only replies by ckillerh3
    • http://home.comcast.net/~ckillerh3/main_index.html
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2006, 07:07:59 PM »
Mine hums, but only because it does not know the words (ha, ha)  :-D
Amiga 4000D/040 Warp Engine/SCSI-CD/Cybergraphic64/X-Surf
Amiga 1200T 060/60 PPC603e BVision and more
Amiga 1200 nice white case GVP1230/1291SCSI
Amiga 2500 stock 2630 GVP HC+8(4)CD-ROM
 

Offline Tomas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 2828
    • Show only replies by Tomas
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2006, 08:48:59 PM »
I cant say i have experienced this under normal usage. But i have experienced a ticking noise when you turn on the psu without it being hooked up to anything.

I have experienced this with other kinds of psu/transformers though, and they usually dont seem to do their job worse because of that. I have one ac adaptor/transformer that has been very noisy and that one has been in constant usage for years after this started to happen.
 

Offline da9000Topic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2005
  • Posts: 922
    • Show only replies by da9000
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2006, 09:04:21 AM »
Thanks Oliver, although I wasn't that smart (as far as safety), but I've survived playing with electronics since 8 years old ... so, I've got my angel :)

Anyways, i'll be more careful with transformers. How can I find the specs for a given transformer?
 

Offline da9000Topic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2005
  • Posts: 922
    • Show only replies by da9000
Re: Is it normal for an A500 power supply to hum?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2006, 09:05:09 AM »
mr_a500

interesting story :)  hope mine also runs like so, and doesn't melt down my miggy ;)