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Offline Waccoon

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #104 from previous page: March 10, 2006, 11:00:20 AM »
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Bloodline:  That's a good point! One thing I couldn't get to grips with when I first used Windows98 (The first version of Windows I owned) was the document centric approach... I've since become very accustomed to it, by using Windows for the last 5 years.

The hardest thing about going back to my 1200 is having to change Default Tools all the time when I download new software.  It's especially painful if something is a Tool instead of a Document, as double-clicking doesn't allow me to type in an app to use.  That annoyed the hell out of me even when I got my A1000.  The old Macs had the same problem, and Macs also wouldn't even ask what app you wanted to use to open the file.  Given that people insist on putting file extentions before the filenames (especially "mod"), this really shows how app-central the Amiga was in its day.  What's more important: the fact that the file is music, or that it's made in SoundTracker?  Many people still sort their music by filetype, than by genre.  What happens if you get a few OGG files?

I also hate tabbed browsing, for many of the same reasons.  I have a multimedia keyboard with keys mapped to Back/Forward/Close/Undo/Redo, and these keys make it ten times easier to control my browser than using the mouse to click tabs.  When a browser opens new tabs in the same window, I have a tendency to close the browser, and thus lose all my websites in one go, with no way to get them all back.  Of course, this also brings up the issue of persistence, which is really getting off topic.  :-)

It's a sticky situation, though, as power users tend to be app-centric, and normal people are document centric.  Which system does an OS support?  Finding a good balance is difficult.  Most OSes, including Windows, Amiga, and MacOS, don't really get it right, despite the patriotism expressed by each platforms' fans.

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Agafaster:  actually, your statement is doubly incorrect: Amiga was invented before Commodore got their grubby paws on it.

Yeah, but OS2 was a hell of an improvement over OS1.x.  I'm shocked looking back on how I used my A1000, and that I actually managed to get anything done at all.  I was so mad when I found OS2 wouldn't run on my A1000, and I couldn't afford to get a 500 with a new ROM.  The 1200 was a brilliant upgrade in terms of usability, even though AGA was a huge disappointment.

Of course, to me, Workbench is the Amiga.  From a high-level view, not being a serious coder at the time, the Amiga's hardware features didn't really seem to set it far apart from other machines in terms of games (yes, really).  PC games were slower, less smooth, and sometimes uglier, but they played much the same way.  The desktop, on the other hand, was simply amazing.  MS-DOS and Win3.1 couldn't touch it.  That's why I want Amiga on x86 so bad, and want it based on practically any modern UNIX-like OS.  I just want a new Workbench.  That's my fondest memory.

But then, I want to be an interface designer.  So long as it handles vector graphics, hardware doesn't really involve me.  I care little about what's under the hood.

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Uncharted:  Typing this on an old eMac 700MHz G4 with only 256MB, and it's running absolutely fine with 6 apps open. I'm not having any performance issues.

It's possible OSX scales back automatically for older Macs.  My mini was a performance slug before I put in more memory, even for simple things like e-mail.  I had to wait minutes for the OS9 version of Graphing Calculator to start!  I hear, though, that 10.4 is much, much more resource hungry than 10.3.  My mini came with 10.4.

The mini is also the first real Mac I've used since my OS8/G3 days, so I can't comment on older versions of OSX.  When I got it with the stock memory, though, the mini seemed a hell of a lot slower than OS8 on the old G3.  OSX can be a real memory hog at times.
 

Offline uncharted

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #105 on: March 10, 2006, 04:07:24 PM »
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Waccoon wrote:

It's possible OSX scales back automatically for older Macs.  


Perhaps I should of added that my brand new stock 12" iBook also does not have performance issues either.

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I had to wait minutes for the OS9 version of Graphing Calculator to start!  


Erm, that is probably because it had to load OS9 first :-)

I'm not an expert on Graphing (my wife is the Mathematician in the family), but on my 10.4 system there is a program in Utilities called Grapher that seems to do the same job.

I don't run Classic on either of my Macs.

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I hear, though, that 10.4 is much, much more resource hungry than 10.3.  My mini came with 10.4.


I haven't noticed that TBH, I know that 10.2 (which I run on my eMac) was not very well optimised. 10.3 was apparently much better resource wise than 10.2
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #106 on: March 10, 2006, 05:01:49 PM »
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Waccoon wrote:


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Uncharted:  Typing this on an old eMac 700MHz G4 with only 256MB, and it's running absolutely fine with 6 apps open. I'm not having any performance issues.

It's possible OSX scales back automatically for older Macs.  My mini was a performance slug before I put in more memory, even for simple things like e-mail.  I had to wait minutes for the OS9 version of Graphing Calculator to start!  I hear, though, that 10.4 is much, much more resource hungry than 10.3.  My mini came with 10.4.


That explains it!! Yeah if you run classic programs in MacOS X, you have to wait for OS9 to boot up and then run inside an OSX task... No wonder it worked better when you put more ram in it... you were running two OSes at the same time.

I won't touch MacOS Classic... I've never liked it, and I still don't, it was crap from day one. Killing it was the Best thing apple ever did!

Offline Kathyone

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #107 on: March 19, 2006, 07:26:19 PM »
PPC design is inherently superior to INTEL.
At the same clock speed it will annhilate the intel chip.
IBM developed it. Motorola has done a lot with low power design. Go to freescale.com. They announced a new partnership between Motorola aka freescale and ibm. Collaberation on design, etc. Go to power.org to check out the details. The xbox 360 is a 970 or g5 core based design. With 3 cores.
Enuff said.
 

Offline Kathyone

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #108 on: March 19, 2006, 07:34:45 PM »
Mac osx is just freebsd unix with a few add ons and a pretty face.

It doesn't scale back for anything. They just used carbon library to run old apps which is integrated into bsd free unix. Even the new apps depend on carbon to some degree.
I haven't looked at Tiger internals. I am a developer for mac os x. I used to develop for amiga os.

I run osx 10.3.9 and will upgrade soon. Don't want no intel processor, though.  Apple gave up on the rhapsody project.
They couldn't get the os right. They used next step code to build os x. Remember NEXT os?

Jobs is a genius, but osx is too monolithic just like linux.
It doesn't scale well. OS4 and other Microkernal based preemptive multitasking cores like qnx are superior.
It is posix or unix compliant and similar, but much much smaller and faster.
 

Offline Kathyone

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #109 on: March 19, 2006, 07:41:41 PM »
ppc 64 is better than intel. Intel is using a 60 nm board die size because they can afford it. The smallest ppc die is 90nm. But the design of the ppc is superior. Look at freescale roadmap. The e600 goes up to 1.5 ghz. The e700 will go to 3ghz with 64 bit instuction set available but with low power. The athlon runs hot. The core duo is the only energy efficent chip they have. The freescale chip is very thermally sound.
With the ibm freescale alliance, They will get the chip and make it economically advantageous to use.

The PPC will triumph.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #110 on: March 19, 2006, 09:02:28 PM »
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Kathyone wrote:
PPC design is inherently superior to INTEL.


That sentense makes as much sense as saying: The French language is inherently superior to Tampax.

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At the same clock speed it will annhilate the intel chip.
IBM developed it.


"The Intel Chip"... intel only make one chip? Ahhh, yes the 4004... :roll:

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Motorola has done a lot with low power design. Go to freescale.com.


By alot, you mean nothing for the past six years...

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The xbox 360 is a 970 or g5 core based design. With 3 cores.
Enuff said.


The xenon cpu (i.e. the chip in the xbox 360), is nothing of the sort. It uses three in order PPC compatible cores, not related to the 970 other than being built by IBM.

You clearly have no understanding of CPU design, I suggest you read up on the subject or stop posting.

I notice you don't plan to upgrade your Mac... never mind, you were probably one of those people who was happy with their A500 and saw no reason to get any of the newer amigas...

Offline bloodline

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #111 on: March 20, 2006, 04:53:56 PM »
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Kathyone wrote:
Mac osx is just freebsd unix with a few add ons and a pretty face.


No it's not. It's Mach 3.0 with a few BSD/Carbon/Cocoa add ons and a pretty face.

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It doesn't scale back for anything. They just used carbon library to run old apps which is integrated into bsd free unix. Even the new apps depend on carbon to some degree.


MacOS X presents the developer with Mach,BSD,Carbon and Cocoa interfaces, the developer uses the parts of each interface best suited to the task he/she has in mind.

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I haven't looked at Tiger internals.


You can't, everything above Darwin is close source.

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I am a developer for mac os x. I used to develop for amiga os.


I don't believe you.

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I run osx 10.3.9 and will upgrade soon. Don't want no intel processor, though.  


Are you afraid of better performance, lower power use, more advanced manufacturing processes, greater supply and clear achievable road maps?

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Apple gave up on the rhapsody project.
They couldn't get the os right. They used next step code to build os x. Remember NEXT os?


MacOS X is NeXT Step (The NEXT operating system). Rhapsody was the code name for a poject to port NeXT Step to the PPC, and to add a new user interface to it (+the Blue Box... ie classic environment). The fruit of this project was shipped as MacOS X Server... later the Carbon API was added and it was shipped as MacOS X 10.0.

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Jobs is a genius, but osx is too monolithic just like linux.


Jobs takes great risks, has clear bold vision and is a very good sales man... but probably not a genius.

Explain the monolithic nature of MacOS X then. Also in what was does MacOS X have anything to do with Linux?

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It doesn't scale well.
OS4 and other Microkernal based preemptive multitasking cores like qnx are superior.


Microkernels? MacOSX is built on one of the first ever microkernels... Mach!!!!

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It is posix or unix compliant and similar, but much much smaller and faster.


You have no idea what you say...

Offline blakespot

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #112 on: March 22, 2006, 04:54:13 PM »
Listen to bloodline.  Kathyone has no idea what she/he is talking about.

For a good history of NEXTSTEP/OpenStep to OS X, see this wonderful piece:

http://www.objectfarm.org/Activities/Publications/TheMerger/index.html


I have long been a NeXT fan.  I ran NEXTSTEP for Intel v3.2 back in 1994 on my 486 66 - a powerful machine then.  Finally acquired my own NeXTStation and a HP to run NEXTSTEP.


NEXTSTEP was years ahead of its time, both as a user friendly, *NIX OS and also as a development platform.  Hell, the developer tools that can be found on a 1989-era NeXT box are ahead of most traditional development platforms today.  Mac OS X, an evolution of NEXTSTEP, is a notable exception, of course.

I am a big Amiga fan.  I've had many Amigas and currently enjoy my Amiga 2000 and Amiga 1200 060.  But I must say, there is no operating system I am aware of that combines power, stability, ease of use, and application range that OS X does.

(Not to say that I don't spend plenty of time with the old guys....)  

And I am also happy to say that my new 2.0GHz MacBook Pro feels about as fast as my dual G5 2.5GHz tower (note the top-left logo in the picture on the wall in that pic...).  With this move, Apple really has a chance to double its market share, or better.

Laptops are Apple's biggest Mac sellers.  Look - now we have a dual core laptop.  Many times faster than the G4 it replaced.  How is this not all good?  And don't lament Rosetta for legacy apps during the transition - I can play a smooth game of HALO under Rosetta on that laptop!  

I run a website concerning the switch, have a look:

http://www.maconintel.com




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Offline Martin_Lee

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2006, 06:36:26 PM »
http://www.barefeats.com/ real mac benchmarks here.

intels perform very well
 

Offline blakespot

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #114 on: March 22, 2006, 06:53:19 PM »
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Kathyone wrote:
The PPC will triumph.


Where?  Macs no longer use them.  I know the fastest Amigas have PPC accelerators, but I don't think that's going to turn the world around to embrace the PPC for desktop computing.  

It's used all over the place in embedded applications.  In that capacity, it has triumphed.  

Is that what you meant?



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Offline blakespot

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #115 on: March 22, 2006, 06:58:32 PM »
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Kathyone wrote:
The xbox 360 is a 970 or g5 core based design. With 3 cores.
Enuff said.


I love my liqiud-cooled, dual G5 2.5GHz Power Mac.  Don't get me wrong.  However, if Sony or Microsoft went with a modern Pentium, their new consoles would have much more horesepower.

See this article: "Why not the Cell?" Here's why....

From the piece - an AnandTech quote:
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In the end, you get what you pay for, and with such a small core, it's no surprise that performance isn't anywhere near the Athlon 64 or Pentium 4 class. The Cell processor doesn't get off the hook just because it only uses a single one of these horribly slow cores; the SPE array ends up being fairly useless in the majority of situations, making it little more than a waste of die space.

The most ironic bit of it all is that according to developers, if either manufacturer (Sony or Microsoft) had decided to use an Athlon 64 or a Pentium D in their next-gen console, they would be significantly ahead of the competition in terms of CPU performance.




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Offline Hyperspeed

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2006, 09:39:59 PM »
What happened to the other 68k machines like the Ataris and Acorns? From what I remember the Acorns went PPC too and an old Amiga company was selling the boards...

Did the Hitachi SH.x range of CPUs ever get used in the computing market?
 

Offline dammy

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2006, 10:48:06 PM »
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Listen to bloodline. Kathyone has no idea what she/he is talking about.


It does look more and more like Kathyone is just a PPC fanboy coming over here to troll.  

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #118 on: March 22, 2006, 10:51:56 PM »
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That sentense makes as much sense as saying: The French language is inherently superior to Tampax.


Ahhh.... but a woman with a tampax in can communicate more in one look than a whole dictionary full of French words could! ;-)
 

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2006, 10:53:16 PM »
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Hyperspeed wrote:
What happened to the other 68k machines like the Ataris and Acorns? From what I remember the Acorns went PPC too and an old Amiga company was selling the boards...

Did the Hitachi SH.x range of CPUs ever get used in the computing market?


The Acorns have never used 68k or PPC.

Try 6502 and ARM (Acorn RISC Machine) CPU's.