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Author Topic: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC  (Read 22715 times)

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2006, 08:05:32 AM »
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Hyperspeed wrote:
Intel make the finest chipsets in the world?

A friend of mine has a Pentium 3 with onboard Intel graphics and it's a 600MHz machine with 2MB of ChipMem if you look at it in Amiga terms.


That machine is 7 years old... And what do you mean by 2MB of chip ram?

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Yes, that's right - a 2MB Intel graphics chipset. It can barely do 800x600 without flickering.


Even 7 yars ago you would have used a nVidia TNT2 gfx card, not an integrated gfx chip :roll:

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Personally I was delighted when Apple announced the Dual-G5 was the World's most powerful computer. It meant for a brief time that Intel's strangle-hold on the market was loosing grip and that diversity could spring forth.


Apple had no choice...IBM weren't serious about pushing the 970 against the Athlon and P4.

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Innovative things like the Transmeta Crusoe couldn't compete, it was Intel this, AMD that.


The Crusoe wasn't that innovative, it basicly pushed the CPU's microcode into main ram, which would have been great if you could afford to use SRAM... at full CPU speed.

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For God's sake people. Buy something interesting. It's like everyone in the world buying a Mercedes when we could be driving minis, Smart cars, scooters, Quads and stuff.


eh?

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We have to double our CPU power every 18 months! So what if we wanted to triple it... would Intel break their own Daddy's "Law"?


It's not a law it was an observation of the semiconductor industry in the 70's which has held true as a general trend ever since (but it's basicly slowing).

Offline uncharted

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2006, 08:33:48 AM »
If you ever need a huge pile of excrement, for your roses or something, just visit an Amiga forum thread about Macs or CPUs.

There's plenty to spare!!!!

 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2006, 09:01:09 AM »
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Hyperspeed:  Yes, that's right - a 2MB Intel graphics chipset. It can barely do 800x600 without flickering.

OK, OK, I conceed that their graphics sucks.

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Hyperspeed:  Personally I was delighted when Apple announced the Dual-G5 was the World's most powerful computer.

Hard to vailidate, given that there were plenty of dual-CPU x86 solutions available at the time.  Of course, whether a computer is defined as a "PC" or a "Workstation" is just as fuzzy.

That dual G5 cost as much as a good x86 server, too -- with liquid cooling to boot.  ;-)

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Hyperspeed:  Innovative things like the Transmeta Crusoe couldn't compete, it was Intel this, AMD that.

Duh.  Crusoe was slow.  x86 chips at Crusoe speeds don't make a lot of heat.  People don't seem to realize that the releationship between performance and heat is exponential.  If you pull back performance a little bit, heat goes down a lot, thus, low-end PPC chips run cool compared to scorching-hot x86 chips, and haphazardly overclocked G5 processors in high-end Macs need liquid cooling compared to one of the new x86 mobile processors.

It's not about technilogical supiriority.  It's about what the customer wants.  If people are willing to put up with heat to get killer performance, that's what they get.  Crusoe aimed for a niche market and just didn't strike it big.  Now that heat is a major problem in portable computers, the big dogs are changing their priorities.

Crusoe was a good idea that didn't perform well in real-world situations, and probably got its inspiration from the FPU bug in the Pentium ("fix it in software").  Sony thought the Cell would be a kickass general-purpose chip that would allow them complete independence from any graphics partners.  But, when they realized a dedicated GPU still does the job better, they changed their plans.  No, they're not using four Cell processors in the PS3, they're using a CPU with muticored DSPs.  Gee wiz.  It's almost a throwback to the times when we had to buy FPUs seperately.  These days, we call then "PPUs", or physics processors.  :-)

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Hyperspeed:  For God's sake people. Buy something interesting. It's like everyone in the world buying a Mercedes when we could be driving minis, Smart cars, scooters, Quads and stuff.

I'd take this over a motorcycle, anyday.  God, I wish the US government would stop pushing SUVs up our butts.

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Hyperspeed:  We have to double our CPU power every 18 months! So what if we wanted to triple it... would Intel break their own Daddy's "Law"?

GPUs were doing that for a while.  Of course, they're highly vectorized processors and generate about as much heat as a CPU, these days.  Also, once people realized that a dedicated coproccessor could do a better job than a CPU (imagine that!), the market grew REAL fast.  I'm sure Intel didn't see 3DFX coming at all while they were spending several years developing MMX.

When there's a sudden burst of innovation, usually it's because what we're using now isn't that good.  Hence, my belief that if PPC is sooooooo technologicly supirior to x86, why don't PPC chips run circles around x86, instead of just keep-up?

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Bloodline:  I really don't think VP code is a good idea... Also Java is MUCH faster on the Core Duo than on the PPC, there have been quite a few threads about it on the Mac forums.

Why not VP?  It's stupid for time-critical code, but would be great for GUI stuff instead of using interpreted languages like Perl.  Also, Virtual Processing is a bit different than a Virtual Machine, like Java.  I do not see VP as a way of making things more portable.  Write-Once, Run-Everywhere is a pipe dream when everyone wants their hardware to stand out.  Coding for the lowest common denominator is dumb.

If there's one thing I've learned as a web programmer, is that things are portable because the developers are familiar with each platform they want to support, and WANT to support them all.  If a developer doesn't give a damn about a platform, their code not going to work on it.  Period.

I see using VP with native low-level code sort of like using a CISC front-end on a RISC core.  It has its uses, so long as it's not abused.

I also find it funny that Java would run faster on an x86 given that it, technically, is big-endian native.

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Bloodline:  Apple had no choice...IBM weren't serious about pushing the 970 against the Athlon and P4.

Yeah, with the console market sewn-up, they have no reason to dabble with desktop computers, anymore.  And since consoles and purpose-build devices don't need robust chipsets with lots of expandability, I don't think Cell et al are going to have any place in the desktop market.  A CPU is no good without a decent chipset, no matter how much vector "supercomputer" power it has.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2006, 09:32:10 AM »
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Waccoon wrote:

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Bloodline:  I really don't think VP code is a good idea... Also Java is MUCH faster on the Core Duo than on the PPC, there have been quite a few threads about it on the Mac forums.

Why not VP?  It's stupid for time-critical code, but would be great for GUI stuff instead of using interpreted languages like Perl.  Also, Virtual Processing is a bit different than a Virtual Machine, like Java.  I do not see VP as a way of making things more portable.  Write-Once, Run-Everywhere is a pipe dream when everyone wants their hardware to stand out.  Coding for the lowest common denominator is dumb.

If there's one thing I've learned as a web programmer, is that things are portable because the developers are familiar with each platform they want to support, and WANT to support them all.  If a developer doesn't give a damn about a platform, their code not going to work on it.  Period.

I see using VP with native low-level code sort of like using a CISC front-end on a RISC core.  It has its uses, so long as it's not abused.



Yeah, I've always found the idea of VP a facinating one, but there isn't really any need for it any more, as it's only useful when trying to run code on different CPU's within a single area of the computing market (i.e. the same operating system, different CPU). If you want to go between the different areas, then you need a VM, like java...  all the major desktop systems use x86... Servers are drifting toward x86... supercomputing is dominated by IBM Power... and personal devices are all ARM.

Each area of computing is now basicly dominated by a single CPU architecture... and I expect to see some/most of them merge over time. Probably a subset of the x86-64 architecture :-)


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I also find it funny that Java would run faster on an x86 given that it, technically, is big-endian native.


Endianess issues do not impact on the performance of a JIT compiler, byte swaps can be accounted for and hidden in the JIT output.

I think far more development has gone into Java->x86 translation, and the JIT is able to make better use of the pipelines and instruction scheduling... Also I believe the Java VM is stack based which means that the x86 is better designed to handle that type of code... where the PPC is optimised for register operations.

Offline tokyoracer

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2006, 09:58:38 AM »
Im with pc all the way, macs are ugly slabs and why go for a pc that isnt as compatible and advanced as a proper PC? And yet often more expencive. Bit like the late acorns verses Wind. 95. Much the same story aparently.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2006, 10:35:35 AM »
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tokyoracer wrote:
Im with pc all the way, macs are ugly slabs and why go for a pc that isnt as compatible and advanced as a proper PC? And yet often more expencive.


Well, if you want to run Logic Pro... then you have to have a mac... If you want a decent laptop then you have to buy a macbook... if you want a laptop that has a 6wire firewire plug, then you have to buy from Apple. If you like a decent supported OS, then Apple is your best option.

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Bit like the late acorns verses Wind. 95. Much the same story aparently.


What? You do know that Acorn used the ARM CPU right?

Yeah, seriously why bother not running windows :roll:

Offline Agafaster

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #50 on: March 06, 2006, 11:48:55 AM »
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The_Editor wrote:

Stick to your guns !!

buy the house and she will expect you to decorate it ....

And so on and so forth..  Never ending expense !!


or if you MUST buy the house, buy it on the proviso that a) you have a room for all your stuff, and if any decorating is to be done, she does it. I also find it helps to be a right mardy sod when going round DIY stores, but YMMV.

but make sure you get the Mac 1st !

I had to ditch a Mac IIci when we moved, but managed to get away with keeping the CPU box.

that reminds me - I need an ADB keyboard and mouse, and a Mac to VGA adaptor... ;-)
\\"New Bruce here will be teaching Machiavelli, Bentham, Locke, Hobbes, Sutcliffe, Bradman, Lindwall, Miller, Hassett and Benaud.\\"
\\"Those are all cricketers, Bruce !\\"
A1XE G3/800MHz Radeon 7000 512MB
A1200 030/25MHz 8MB
 

Offline daydreamer

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2006, 12:34:26 PM »
Like the video link, okay very simple changes but effective...
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2006, 01:19:31 PM »
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People need to keep in mind that the CPU alone isn't the only issue.  Like them or not, Intel still makes the finest chipsets in the world, and that is often the bottleneck in a PC.  Even notice how slow a budget 3GHZ PC feels?  Yeah, the CPU is fine, but those VIA/Ali chipsets suck.  Intel chips don't siphon everything off the PCI bus.



2002 called, they want their chipsets back.

I take it you haven't seen a list of 'errata' for the average Intel chipset. It is just as bad as the list for VIA, ULi, ATI, nVidia ...

ULi currently make one of the best chipsets, should you ever bother to read a review. As they use a standard PCIe interconnect their southbridge also works with ATI northbridges (which is a blessing, as ATI haven't quite got with the chipset making yet, their current southbridge is rather average).
 

Offline dammy

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2006, 04:37:57 PM »
ARS Technica has published a new article of PPC vs Intel Macs, here.

Dammy
Dammy

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Unless otherwise noted, I speak only for myself.
 

Offline Hyperspeed

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2006, 07:34:35 PM »
Intel's chip designers probably design the bodywork for the Porsche range of cars - i.e. nothing ever really changes but it's packaged as a revolutionary new thing.

I kinda like dat compoota known as teh OMEGA!

Neat chipset inside this machine no?

EDIT:
Dammy: Appropriate company name there...  'ARS'
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2006, 07:46:34 PM »
Hey, even if the new macs arent as powerful as steve jobs reality distortion field would have you beleive, it's still a lot more fun than smoking MS Crack.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2006, 07:49:27 AM »
Quote

Hyperspeed wrote:
Intel's chip designers probably design the bodywork for the Porsche range of cars - i.e. nothing ever really changes but it's packaged as a revolutionary new thing.

I kinda like dat compoota known as teh OMEGA!

Neat chipset inside this machine no?


Err... quite...

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EDIT:
Dammy: Appropriate company name there...  'ARS'


ArsTechnica is one of the greatest technical resources on the internet... I suggest you read the CPU articles.

Offline amigadave

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2006, 08:02:59 AM »
Can't remember who told me about Ars Technica, but it is a great site and I visit it often to read their "not so canned and predictable" reviews and reporting.
How are you helping the Amiga community? :)
 

Offline uncharted

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2006, 09:56:00 AM »
Quote

Hyperspeed wrote:
Intel's chip designers probably design the bodywork for the Porsche range of cars - i.e. nothing ever really changes but it's packaged as a revolutionary new thing.

I kinda like dat compoota known as teh OMEGA!

Neat chipset inside this machine no?

EDIT:
Dammy: Appropriate company name there...  'ARS'


Er, were you ever dropped on your head as a baby?
 

Offline Hyperspeed

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Re: Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC
« Reply #59 from previous page: March 08, 2006, 12:52:06 AM »
I'm sorry, I was merely attempting to sabotage the thread.

Forgive me.

:-D