Dave Haynie (lead engineer of C= Amiga) opinion on Amiga Successors

[bhoggett]

A3KOne wrote:
Geek toy? No.

Fanatic toy? Yes.

I was trying to be polite.  ;-)

[Glaucus]

lempkee wrote:
Glaucus:

So youre actually saying that 68k has more active users and developers than morphos/os4 ones? ..

Nope. I wasn't diferentiating between 68K/OS4/MOS, but the entire Amiga & Amiga-like market to the mainstream market. There is no viable software for the 68k/OS4/MOS markets. If you wanna play the latest games, you can't be serious about any of those. If you want serious business software, you can't be serious of any of those (and never could). Even desktop video and graphics software is better on the mainstream market. If you just want to surf your time away on the web, you'd still be better off with the mainstream market.

Get my point? No one is gonna invest big bucks into a computer that has almost zero utility. If you want to start off a new OS you'd best do so in such a way so that it's easy and cheap for people to buy into it. Ideally, OS4 would have been on PC hardware and software would have been given out for free or very little cost. The PC hardware would have been easy to do, the free release not so much. But still, even at a reasonable cost, AmigaOS4 could have been viable on standard hardware. That's my point.

  - Mike

[Glaucus]

Hi Bill! Long time no see. How are things?

  - Mike

[bhoggett]

Glaucus wrote:
Hi Bill! Long time no see. How are things?

  - Mike

Reasonably good. I've been away from all things Amiga for many months now - don't even have a posting account on ANN!  :lol:

Mind you, nowt's changed. I might have been away for no more than a week.

Get my point? No one is gonna invest big bucks into a computer that has almost zero utility. If you want to start off a new OS you'd best do so in such a way so that it's easy and cheap for people to buy into it. Ideally, OS4 would have been on PC hardware and software would have been given out for free or very little cost. The PC hardware would have been easy to do, the free release not so much. But still, even at a reasonable cost, AmigaOS4 could have been viable on standard hardware. That's my point

I think that's the point Dave was making too.It was a path that suited some of the existing user base, but one which excluded for ever any opportunity for growth. It's amazing that even five years later people keep vehemently denying it against all available evidence.

[red_orion]

Personally I feel that making OS4 available on both PPC and X86 platforms would've been a good move

[AmigaEd]

by lempkee on 2006/1/10 8:38:56
u guys must be mental or something ..sorry but wtf are you guys on about?

Yes, I am mental! Why else would I still love to use an Amiga?

you guys (and haynie too) are missing a crucial thing here, morphos and os4 has been dooing everyting on their own more or less

So which is it the more or the less? I'm going with the later until I see something I can get my hands on. (even if it is four years late)

look at all the fancy stuff mos and os4 has, look how stagnated the 68k arena is, ever crossed your mind why?

First of all, my 68K Amiga exists and I can touch it and use it. I can't speak about MOS, but as far as OS4 is concerned... How the heck do you expect me to "look at all the fancy stuff mos and os4 has". I can't buy OS4 software, even if I could buy it, what hardware am I to run it on? That doesn't seem to exist either. The only people who have OS4 are the few select developers who did get it. This is not the majority of the Amiga user base. How many people own an Amiga one? I'm hearing people on here talking of jumping on the first available opportunity to dump their Micro A1. What conclusion should that bring to someone's mind?

i belived it was time to show the world what a slow ass machine can do if the OS running on it was amazing , doing such on a x86..sure would probably be cool but who will support and make drivers for the millions of types of boards and so on?

Yeah, sure that would be cool. But why shoot for the bottom of the pile? Think of how much cooler it would be to run OS4 on a top of the line state of the art system. (The system that Amiga once was.) Wouldn't it be cool to walk into your local Walmart and pay $499 USD for a system and the clerk says to you "So which operating system would you like with that? Do you want the Bloated Windows operating system that will use up the majority of your hard drive space so that you won't have any room for your pictures and movies and that will require gigabytes worth up updates to keep it from crashing and to keep you safe from every threat known to a CPU register? OR... would you rather have this kick ass Amiga operating system that uses less than a Gig of your hard drive space, supports open document formats, runs at more than twice the speed of it's nearest counter part and is fully backward compatible so that you can also play all of those old games you remember from your childhood. Oh, and by the way, if you really want to run Windows, well you can  run that under emulation, along with OS-X, Linux, etc."

If the only concern was running super fast on outdated hardware then Amithlon would be sufficient to appease the masses who would soon loose interest anyway.

As far as who writes the drivers, well, who writes the drivers of X86 hardware now? It seems that it would be more detremental to an operating system to try to support hardware that is old and going obsolete than it would be to support current and upcomming hardware. How much hardware from 1994 does Windows XP support? Even Bill gates realizes that there comes a time to pull the plug and kill the life support on somethings.

Look, I'm willing to support any development that supports the Amiga. If OS4 comes out and some matching hardware, I will probably buy it. But no developer has the right, nor should they have an expectation for support from a community for which they have developed nothing.

and that is exactley what it is right now... NOTHING!
Oh yes, I know it hurts the developers to hear this, I've been there myself. But the reality is until OS4 hits the shelf in a box with a price sticker on it and a hardware platform that it can run on exists then it is NOTHING! Yes, I know developers have toiled away for hours at code, but one bean counter can kill all of that effort with one mighty stroke of the pen through a zero!

As much as you may find this thread insulting to your efforts with OS4, many people would find it insulting to be told something that has no evidence of existance is the future we should be looking to. I'm not even talking that tangible evidence is required. Hell, lie to us if you want but at least be convincing. Amiga, Inc, etc. has done a pretty poor job of that to say the least.

You know, I typically hate reading this stuff and even more so hate propagating and contributing to these types of threads, but come on guys! Lets face the truth! OS4 development has been slow and misguided by almost any standard. It's time to SH#T or get off the pot!

And NO I'm not trolling! I don't have any agenda for any of these platforms or OS's! Most of them suck equally! I just love my Amiga (as so many of us do), so BUILD IT and I will come!

 :destroy:  :flame:  :argue:  :furious:  :admonish:

Regards,
AmigaEd

[Legerdemain]

Ok then..........why do you suppose many of us Amigans still use our Amigas as Main machines???

Because they are Amigans?

No, seriously, I could NEVER do with only an Amiga as my main machine. I can surf the web using IBrowse and be extremely fascinated over how fast it is on my 060. I can be impressed with how well Shapeshifter runs. I can bash my head against the wall when I realise that there is no pixel-GFX-proggy on the PC side which comes close to what DPaint and Brilliance has to offer. I can play games and cry somewhat when I realise how extremely well programmed they must be considering what a mess the Amiga must have been to program really advanced games on...

...I can do many things with my Amiga...

...but 50% of what I do, is just out of pure fascination on what it COULD do considering WHEN it could do those very things and how EFFECTIVE it actually was in some aspects...  not to mention thinking about how time not have managed to make other OS'es cacth up in every single aspect, yet...

...another 45% I do to be inspired how things COULD have looked today if everything didn't go so wrong as it did, even wishing that OS:es of today could be inspired of some of the extremely effective and smart solutions classic AOS has had, and to some extent still has, to offer...

...and the remaining 5% I actally spend on doing things that I still can't do in a pleasing manner elsewhere. Pixling with DPaint V (did never surrender to the favourable Brilliance II, don't know why) for example. Can't find a way to do it on the PC... Photoshop, Grafx2, PaintShopPro... no way! I could always emulate it, but DPaint doesn't behave entirely correctly and Brilliance doesn't seem to work at all as it should under WinUAE, well, anyways...

...but, 100% of the time I spend with my Amiga I spend because it makes me feel so good sitting playing around with it. I love the OS, no matter that it lacks many things and have many things to be complained about, and I love many other things related to it, aswell...

...but, once again, I couldn't have it as my main machine. What it offers to me today is a source of inspiration, dreams of better times and extremely high nostalgic value. No matter if I actually use it for a couple of things I haven't found a way to do pleasantly elsewhere.

It is a sort of lifestyle and a hobby.

Everyone knows PC's are massive headaches...I have never ever in my entire life had a pleasurable PC experience. not even with my Pentium 4.......

I feel sorry for you. I've had extremely much pleasure with my PC's. Yes, they have given me headaches from time to time, but all in all I think they the best affordable alternative there is, at the moment. Possibly Mac's can be counted in here, aswell, but I am not to familiar with them yet (they have always intrigued me, but never have I owned one to toy around with... I have mostly emulated Classic Mac with the help of Shapeshifter on the Amiga and from time to time seen bits and pieces of MacOS X in action).

If it isn't headache to get a complete crash of the system, no matter what important tasks were running in the backgroung, a crash you will get on the Amiga almost anytime and anywhere when toying around too much in AOS, then I don't know what is a total headache. Of course I've had problems with Windows aswell, but only one time during the three or four, don't know really, years I've used XP it has completely crasched on me.

PC's just suck and so does Windows.

No they don't and no it doesn't.

It may be that the Windows, all of the different versions of it, has big flaws, and that there are too many things to be complained about concerning the OS in itself, but suck Windows does not.

Why do PC's suck, according to you? And why does Windows suck, according to you?

[lempkee]

AmigaED: no idea where you have been the last year(s) but OS4 was released in pre release summer 2004 and since then its been updated 3 times (ie downloadable updates) but yes only for thoose who bought the AmigaOne Hw plattform.

as for Classic , OS4.0 will be on sale for classic. (and bundled with other new Amiga motherboards that will appear)

As for Morphos , both available for Pegasos1/2 and Classic atm.

so i dont understand your point ..if you want something for X86 ... go aros if you want something thats beeing updated regulary...or uae ...dont expect amithlon to do that though.


edit: why people wanna dump their micro a1 when something new comes ..well thats up to them to decide aint it? but here is a few reasons i think plays a big role , USB1.1 and only a 32mb gfx card onboard ..the other stuff is fairly ok.

If i was to like say, i want to dump my classic because my a1 beats the {bleep} out of it....wtf does that mean really? ..will the world go under and stop using Classic? ..sorry but lol.

[AmigaEd]

by lempkee on 2006/1/11 21:06:47
but yes only for thoose who bought the AmigaOne Hw plattform.

Yep! Wasn't there with cash in hand in 2004 so, now what? Was that it? Obsolete 2004 Amiga One or nothing?

as for Classic , OS4.0 will be on sale for classic. (and bundled with other new Amiga motherboards that will appear)

Yep, that's great if it happens and as I said I'll most likely buy one. But honestly, don't you think people get tired of waiting for the carrot?

so i dont understand your point ..if you want something for X86 ... go aros if you want something thats beeing updated regulary...or uae ...dont expect amithlon to do that though.

Point is I don't give a hoot which platform it exists for, but at least give me something I can get. As I said Amithlon is great for putting on an old x86 system, but the novelty will wear off quickly. I use both AROS and WinUAE. They are available, they are what they are. No More, No Less. Hmmmm...OS4, want to buy, can't get it. Hmmmm....Can't get it with out the hardware, Hmmmm... can't get the hardware. Hmmmm....dying of old age!

edit: why people wanna dump their micro a1 when something new comes ..well thats up to them to decide aint it? but here is a few reasons i think plays a big role , USB1.1 and only a 32mb gfx card onboard ..the other stuff is fairly ok.

Point well, made. Outdated before it even came close to hitting the shelves. You know, now I'm glad I didn't have the money in 2004.

i want to dump my classic because my a1 beats the {bleep} out of it....wtf does that mean really?

Perhaps I would consider dumping my classic if I could get my hands on an A1 with OS4. But there in lies the problem.

..will the world go under and stop using Classic?

Not likely, considering the "world" is using Windows on x86 systems.
The people using the classic systems will continue to do so. It's what they have, it's what they like, They appreciate the history and quirks of the Amiga.

..sorry but lol.

Good luck with that... hope it all works out for you.

-AmigaEd

[Cymric]

leirbag28 wrote:
Ok then..........why do you suppose many of us Amigans still use our Amigas as Main machines???

Because you know every nook and cranny of the machine. You know its idiosyncracies. You know at what phase of the Moon you should ritually slaughter a chicken and perform dark magic rites to exorcise the pent-up bad juju.

Partly its because of its responsiveness............When I am Doing Visuals I use:
Scala MM300
Elan Performer
DSS8
MindEYE
Trip A Tron
Brilliance
AMPlifier

all at the same Time! on a 68030 CD32/SX32  and I swap between them with the LEFT  AMIGA + M key!   Never seen a PC swap that fast!  and still no slowdown.

You are a sick masochist to use all that on a 68030 simultaneously. You know what I think? I think that you are grossly overestimating the response time of your tiny setup, and grossly underestimating that of a PC. You are also comparing task switching times when none of these programs are busy doing calculations and are in fact just waiting for user input. (The reason why I joined this forum was a discussion on task switching times. Someone wrote a program to demonstrate that Windows Sucked Badly. Unfortunately, he silently ignored setup delays, memory paging, and what not. And I am very certain you are ignoring that, too.)

I also think that you never gave the PC equivalent a sporting chance because, as I said earlier, you know your way around this setup, and actively dislike learning something new. You have developed a certain way of doing things, you feel comfortable with it, and damn the rest even if it would boost your productiveness. That's fine with me: if you are happy playing with techniques developed in the Stone---okay, Bronze---Age, who am I to argue. But that doesn't mean that PC's automatically suck.

Everyone knows PC's are massive headaches...I have never ever in my entire life had a pleasurable PC experience. not even with my Pentium 4.......thats why we and all Mac users consistently complain....The Proof is in the Pudding.  PC's just suck and so does Windows. Something is just not right.

You know, this sort of fanboy talk just makes me smile vaguely. Somehow the word of anonymous users, all of whom are of course implied computer experts, must make it credible. My dear Leirbag: it won't, so stop wasting bandwidth on tactics you know are blatantly obvious. Let's start at the beginning. Define a 'pleasurable experience'. Explain to me why your Pentium IV can't give you that, but your whoefully underpowered and stressed-to-breaking-point 68030 can.

Im not excited because I am a fanatic......I am excited because I know what this machine can do at such low specs.....and only imagine if there was the AAA Chipset and a 400Mhz 68090 with Workbench 3.6 Nuclear Edition with a free bottle of Plutonium for powering your CPU. hehe!

You are a fanatic---in more ways than one, I should add---and ignoring that fact, so blatantly obvious to anyone else, won't make it go away. I think you never really, genuinely, looked at what the other machines can do when they are flexing their muscles.

Oh, and I noticed that you ignored my remarks on why Amigas are BAD, and chose to counter it with meaningless issues on task switching and anonymous computer users complaining. I have this awful sense of déja vu when I think of other discussion subjects where people behave in the same way---and that also means I should stop discussing things right here and now.

[leirbag28]

@Cymric

Quote:

    leirbag28 wrote:
    Ok then..........why do you suppose many of us Amigans still use our Amigas as Main machines???
------------------------------------------------------------------

Because you know every nook and cranny of the machine. You know its idiosyncracies. You know at what phase of the Moon you should ritually slaughter a chicken and perform dark magic rites to exorcise the pent-up bad juju.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes Cymric......this is partially part of the reason.......but with Good Reason!  The Amiga is excellent!




-------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:

    Partly its because of its responsiveness............When I am Doing Visuals I use:
    Scala MM300
    Elan Performer
    DSS8
    MindEYE
    Trip A Tron
    Brilliance
    AMPlifier

    all at the same Time! on a 68030 CD32/SX32 and I swap between them with the LEFT AMIGA + M key! Never seen a PC swap that fast! and still no slowdown.
------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are a sick masochist to use all that on a 68030 simultaneously. You know what I think? I think that you are grossly overestimating the response time of your tiny setup, and grossly underestimating that of a PC. You are also comparing task switching times when none of these programs are busy doing calculations and are in fact just waiting for user input. (The reason why I joined this forum was a discussion on task switching times. Someone wrote a program to demonstrate that Windows Sucked Badly. Unfortunately, he silently ignored setup delays, memory paging, and what not. And I am very certain you are ignoring that, too.)

I also think that you never gave the PC equivalent a sporting chance because, as I said earlier, you know your way around this setup, and actively dislike learning something new. You have developed a certain way of doing things, you feel comfortable with it, and damn the rest even if it would boost your productiveness. That's fine with me: if you are happy playing with techniques developed in the Stone---okay, Bronze---Age, who am I to argue. But that doesn't mean that PC's automatically suck.
-----------------------------------------------------------------



 This is also True (some of it)   SO I say ok then..... Task Switching on PC's Suck! :-D
By the way Try my setup.......68030 50mhz 128mb 40 gighd MASPlayer  and see for yourself..........SCALA can run scripts and you can press LEFT AMIGA M   and switch to workbench and run an MP3 from AMPlifier with not much difference..........and SCALA is still running it presentation. My Amiga needs to be capable of this.........the Club has no time to wait for me to Load software.   This is activiely happening for 4 to 5 hours straight.

I will again say...Task switching on PC's definitely suck..................Due in part to the way VGA monitors wait to change sync......and also due to the Stupid start menu..........even key combination switching is just not the same............Draggable Amiga screens and clicking the top right corner icon on Amiga is simply unmatched.......Sorry, this is one of my favorite Amiga features........its just done right.......

........and....I'm not a masochist.......you only think that because you think my Amiga is slowing down.   Its Not! I do however only probably use only  2 apps at a time (and yes you are right that they are just waiting user input) although all of them are open even though I only have 2mb Chip RAM  :-D  again....amazing considering how my P4 slows down if I have 4 apps open.
Ohhhh boy!  And I am definitely not overestimating response Times.   Do me a favor......Get Elan Performer  load animations on to every single key.......preload them into RAM (the reason I need 128mb of RAM) or get a SCSI HD.......now Perform!     as fast as you can!    See!  Thats why its called "PERFORMER"  the best app of its kind on the Amiga..........theres tons of imitations on the PC (Archoas, Composite Station, GRID 2, Resolume,)  and I find mine to be the slickest, even on my teeny weeny 030.
This speed may not impress you if your not a VJ.but think in terms of Fast Techno Music...and every image or animation on that key popping up at will intime with the music.



Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------
I also think that you never gave the PC equivalent a sporting chance because, as I said earlier, you know your way around this setup, and actively dislike learning something new. You have developed a certain way of doing things, you feel comfortable with it, and damn the rest even if it would boost your productiveness. That's fine with me: if you are happy playing with techniques developed in the Stone---okay, Bronze---Age, who am I to argue. But that doesn't mean that PC's automatically suck.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Your right on this passage in almost all acounts.............But I use my PC every day..........every morning....every night..............to search for solutions to replace tasks on my Amiga................namely FIle conversion and Video Playback.

My conclusion..............a PC can never be used professionally for what I use it for reliably.............unless you never connect that PC to the internet and keep it clean and uncluttered. and use another PC for downloading.email etc.....just burn what you need to CD to put it on that PC.....................even wth all this......it still doesnt feel right.......Windows' directory file structure makes no sence.......its the most WACKO of its kind..............PC users are blind to this cuz they never knew anything better.  So they dont get it when I say something like this.

I dont think PC's automatically suck........ one of my quotes is "Its not that Amigas are really good......it's that PC's really suck"

I dont think Amigas are all that great........I just think they are done Properly..and PC are not............Amiga has a good foundation OS, the PC does not..they just add Rockets and Turo Boost to a horrible OS to hide its crappiness By painting over it with More RAM more Mhz, More HD space...........Ridiculous! considering what the Amiga can do with such low specs............I will even completely cast out OS3.9 and below and just compare OS4 to Windows and Macs..........its still wayyyyyyy more efficient.

And by the way.......I never Said "I was NOT a Fanatic"  I definitely am............I was just saying thats NOT the reason why I was saying what I was saying.


And some people might not get it......but I am one of those people who believes he can take on Microsoft with Amiga OS and win!  YES! in this Day and age right now.

For some reason people always misunderstand a statement like that and think:
 "You think you can take on WindowsXP with AmigaOS 3.1?  Hardee Har har....your insane!.....and you think You can take on a Pentium 4 with an OLD custom chipset?  HArdee Har har!  Your insane"


and the answer is NO........Im speaking of a Modern day Equivalent Amiga with OS 3.6 (or OS 5.2)  and a Modern XBOX beating custom Chipset..that can emulate 4 XBOX at once.....but wont come with that capability out of the Box......only with the capability of emulating 2.

Completely fascinate people in the way it looks and works.
All for the Price of $600....being a Full blown computer and Game machine HDTV Component and S-Video out a Native, DVD,VCD,CD+G,PhotoCD, QuickTime DIVX, PhotoJPG and more....able to boot from these kinds of discs, to be viewed immediately, just like a CD32' VCD, AudioCD, CD+G capability and VLM (Jeff Minters Virtual Light Machine type Visuals).....4 joypad ports as standard (Non USB).....and more which I wont mention)

To me Any machine that has anything less of what I mentioned and is released as an "Amiga" today.......is NO Amiga.....its just a Computer with the name slapped on. A nice comparable machine to PC's and Macs it may be........but for that...I would rather get a Mac..which is safer buy and is more established.  Simply becaue that kind of "Amiga"   will not succeed or make a dent in this day and age.

[bhoggett]

The Amiga is a drug, This thread is proof positive if it.  :lol:




If you want to read people ranting on ad-infinitum about things they know absolutely nothing about, read an Amiga forum. Nice to see some things never change.

[Doppie1200]

bhoggett wrote:
The Amiga is a drug, This thread is proof positive if it.  :lol:

Now that is one true thing. I had my amiga stashed away during some renovation of my house. All that time a couldn't use it. Perhaps that is the closest what I got to feeling a complete starved junky.

Anyway, about that responsiveness; Why does my amiga freeze when I hold the mouse button down. Only to come back alive on release. Is this an amiga thing? Or do I have a crap setup ;-).

[kingkleks]

@ leirbag28: hear hear (mostly:-)

What's with you people? For Pete's sake this is an AMIGA site, no? I don't come here to hear why Windoze or anything else is  or might be better than Miggy (of course everything has to be taken with a grain of salt; ie if somebody claims that they can run Quake on their Miggy at 1024x756 at 100 fps that has to raise some eyebrows). Let's some Microshaft site do that. I use a Windoze box everyday, I work on them, I put them together for people. Been doing that for years. Still don't like them. Not because I don't like Microshaft (that's another story) but because of the way Windoze works (or doesn't;-). True, it allows one to do more things but not necessarily better and only because of it's market share. It's easy to throw more RAM or a faster CPU in the computer and call it "better". But is it? A computer can do billions of operations a second but it's all useless if it doesn't do what you want it to. Many people still find value in their Miggies and software and more power to them. And I think that's what this site is about. Saying "ohh, but Windoze (or whatever) does that better" is no good. It serves no purpose other than flamewar. We shouldn't allow ourselves fall for such things. If you think Windoze is better, great for you. Use it but do not try to tell me that because that is not why I am here.

[koaftder]

bhoggett wrote:
The Amiga is a drug, This thread is proof positive if it.  :lol:




If you want to read people ranting on ad-infinitum about things they know absolutely nothing about, read an Amiga forum. Nice to see some things never change.

Didnt the amiga come out about the same time crack cocaine took over washington DC? Maybe this has something to do with it.

[uncharted]

bhoggett wrote:

If you want to read people ranting on ad-infinitum about things they know absolutely nothing about, read an Amiga forum. Nice to see some things never change.

But doesn't that give a nice warm fuzzy feeling inside? :-D