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Author Topic: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?  (Read 15307 times)

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Offline dylansmrjo

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2005, 08:26:11 PM »
Things happen.

I don't think Apples switch to x86 will make a major difference in the long term. Nor in the short term since it will take quite a while to finish the transition from PPC to x86.

The only problem IMO is the high price for the AmigaOne and the small production.

We need more A1s and a 67-75% cut on the price. The same goes for OS4.
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Offline dammy

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2005, 09:00:00 PM »
Except A1's are finished.  Their chipset is now EOL and the fat lady has sung.  Either Eyetech will have to find a new hardware to call A1, or Hyperion finds a new suck^H^H^Hhardware vender willing to put up with AI Tax.

Either way, it's not a pretty future.

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Offline dylansmrjo

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2005, 09:03:48 PM »
It would be nice to have a major (or just a medium sized) hardware vendor. But...

Another option is to replace the chipset.
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Offline dammy

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2005, 09:11:06 PM »
Question of course, who is going to do the R&D into putting a new mobo together.  Eyetech simply boingballed stamped the mobo after swapping out the ROM image.  I doubt anyone will deny that developing a new mobo is beyond Eyetech's capabilities.  Of course, no one will deny it would be expensive to do and ROI is nearly impossible with the current market.

Unless Eyetech can come up with a new mobo to rebadge, no more A1s.

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Offline Tigger

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2005, 10:26:59 PM »
Quote

dylansmrjo wrote:
Things happen.

I don't think Apples switch to x86 will make a major difference in the long term.

I have no idea why you would think that.  Apple buys over 4 million high end PPCs, thats not something thats going to get swallowed up by the Eyetech, Genesi, etc.  Instead those lines will go to making parts for Microsoft, Sony & Nintendo.  The 775's production is going to dump down very low, and I don't think we will see a G6 or quad G5 at least for a long time, and maybe not ever.

Quote

Nor in the short term since it will take quite a while to finish the transition from PPC to x86.


On June 6th, the switch was announced, at Siggraph (August 2-4) basically all the main players have there software running on the mac prototypes, when NAB rolls around (April of next year) I fully expect the x86 laptops (and maybe desktops) will be shipping and the software for all will be available.  Why do you think its going to take quite awhile to finish the transition??  This is the last year of only PPC macs, and I think before this time next year, there will be no PPC macs at the Apple Store.
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Offline Tripitaka

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2005, 01:46:47 AM »
Quote

Tigger wrote:
Quote

I have no idea why you would think that.  Apple buys over 4 million high end PPCs, thats not something thats going to get swallowed up by the Eyetech, Genesi, etc.  Instead those lines will go to making parts for Microsoft, Sony & Nintendo.  The 775's production is going to dump down very low, and I don't think we will see a G6 or quad G5 at least for a long time, and maybe not ever.


So we need a "Cell" port for OS4, Hyperion have hinted about this before and if it turns out to be the natural path for ppc, GREAT, it's a powerfull chip.  :-)
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Offline dammy

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2005, 03:26:59 AM »
Quote
So we need a "Cell" port for OS4, Hyperion have hinted about this before and if it turns out to be the natural path for ppc, GREAT, it's a powerfull chip.


Except it's not that great of a general purpose CPU for desktops.

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Offline coldfish

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2005, 06:21:33 AM »
I think its pretty narrowminded of A1 owners to ignore those prospective A1 buyers/users who get put off by the A1's prohibitive price and (perceived) lacklustre specs.

Hyperion, for one, wouldve liked to see the A1 shift more units. Imagine how it feels to know that even when OS4 is completed, the most units you can look forward to shifting is somewhere in the vicinity of; I'm guessing, <3000?  Probably a lot less?

In addition to this, the A1 community has unfairly pinned all their hopes and dreams on Hyperion.  They're only a small company, and like all small businesses need to profit from their efforts and cover their costs.  How can they profit from the A1's tiny userbase, and go on to develop future products in a dwindeling market?

Crunch the numbers A1 users, it doesnt look good!  

You NEED those prospective A1 buyers whether you want them or not.

For this reason I'm sympathetic to CHR_ZD even if he didnt articulate his anger and frustration at the A1 situation in the best possible way.
 

Offline Panthro

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2005, 07:46:50 AM »
there is no point in getting excited about the price of a low run motherboard. Low prodution number = higher unit cost & if thats a major deterent the the obvious solution is to not upgrade or buy second hang (although not lightly to find one)

we are a niche market & thats cool. I wish it was cheaper but I'm not going to troll about it.

no offence to those frustrated, I am too but NOT taking pot shots at those that are giving us SOMETHING!!


and who better than the Super Hyperion bros.  :idea:  hey that gives me an idea LOL :lol:
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Offline dylansmrjo

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2005, 12:58:15 PM »
There's no question the price is too high. Of course it's too high.

Low production == high price.

Eyetech does not have the financial strength to mass produce in great numbers. However, this is nescessary for the price to drop enough for the masses to buy the A1. Right now it's selling for the classes instead of the masses.

The major question would be: From where should the needed funding come? I'm blank on this one.

But in regard to the whether A1 is obsolete from a technological POW, the answer is "no".

But it's too expensive, which has a very logical explanation. I think the base quality of AOS4 is enough to make A1 look good, but I'm probably the only one :-P
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Offline dylansmrjo

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2005, 05:29:14 PM »
Quote

Tigger wrote:
I have no idea why you would think that.  Apple buys over 4 million high end PPCs, thats not something thats going to get swallowed up by the Eyetech, Genesi, etc.  Instead those lines will go to making parts for Microsoft, Sony & Nintendo.  The 775's production is going to dump down very low, and I don't think we will see a G6 or quad G5 at least for a long time, and maybe not ever.


Quite simple. The switch will be finished medio 2008 according to Apple and Freescale.

Quote

Tigger wrote:
On June 6th, the switch was announced, at Siggraph (August 2-4) basically all the main players have there software running on the mac prototypes, when NAB rolls around (April of next year) I fully expect the x86 laptops (and maybe desktops) will be shipping and the software for all will be available.  Why do you think its going to take quite awhile to finish the transition??  This is the last year of only PPC macs, and I think before this time next year, there will be no PPC macs at the Apple Store.


Since the switch wont be finished until medio 2008 according to Apple and Freescale, then there will be PPC Macs for sale in 2006 and 2007. And support for these will stay around for another decade. The G3 and G4 CPUs will be very obsolete way before production of them stops.

It's a wonder you believe that you can switch so fast, as you think they can.

It takes many resources and much money to make such a transition.
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Offline Tigger

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2005, 06:24:12 PM »
Quote

Tripitaka wrote:

So we need a "Cell" port for OS4, Hyperion have hinted about this before and if it turns out to be the natural path for ppc, GREAT, it's a powerfull chip.  :-)


Great, but if thats the plan, they should already have developer boards (and they don't), they should have announced a deal with Mercury (or one of the other reputable board manufacturers) to sell OS4 on there boards, and they should be lining up people to buy the boards.  At least that board will run Linux well, if OS4 is going to be a Cell OS, then they need to be porting it.  I still say a much better idea is port it to the Mac Mini, sell OS4 for $100 or $150 with a USB dongle, and be done with it.  Hardware warranty problem gone, hardware availability problem gone, worst thing is Hyperion would have to tell people we are out of our first 500 USB dongles, it will be two weeks till we get 500 more, wouldn't that be better posts, then we dont have any idea when hardware to run our OS will be available.  Plus your systems would have USB, Firewire, etc, everyone would be working on drivers, because linux drivers for all of it exist already, so its not that hard to move them from one OS to another running on the same hardware.      
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Offline dylansmrjo

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2005, 06:41:07 PM »
Porting OS4 to x86 would be even better ;-)

At least in regard to availability of hardware and hardware prices.

However, supporting the wide array of hardware could turn out to be quite troublesome.

Porting to x86 would give a much greater market, allowing for lower prices and therefore larger sales numbers :-D
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Offline Zac67

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2005, 09:07:01 PM »
Back to the thread topic:
I don't know what you call
PC133 SDRAM
USB 1.1
PCI based interconnect
but I call that obsolete - nobody tries to sell machines with these specs any more.
No offense meant, I'd like to have an A1 myself since it'll probably be the last 'Amiga' ever, but with low specs and high prices the market will remain tiny, with or without a release OS4. I wonder who they want the sell the OS to when it's done. If it's done.
 

Offline dylansmrjo

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2005, 09:34:25 PM »
Well, the only clearly outdated item here is: PC133 SDRAM

Good old PCI is not obsolete, nor is AGP.

SDRAM is obsolete, but you gain next to nothing with DDR RAM when the FSB is running at 133 MHz. However, considering the lower prices on DDR RAM, it would be great if it was possible to use it with A1.

A1 is not obsolete, it is however overpriced based on specs.

The only way to get lower prices is to produce a lot more. That requires quite some investments, which apparently is a major risk for a company like EyeTech.

I'd prefer to see AOS4 running on a Peg2 :-P
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Offline minator

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Re: AMIGAONE.... isn't it an obsolete technology already?
« Reply #74 from previous page: November 17, 2005, 10:58:47 PM »
Quote
Mercury-Momentum = They have one shipping product (the development board), it appears two more on the way, do you honestly believe they are a major portion of the G5s sold?


Momentum alone have done quite a few 970 based boards but I don't think all of them are public.  Mercury sell to military, medical etc. type customers so we're unlikely to hear much of what they sell either.

My point it Apple are not the only people selling 970 based systems.  Apple are the only company selling them to the general public though.

Quote
Telcos probably find them useful. ---- G5 is a pretty expensive part for the that use, why exactly do you think that is true??


G5 is a very good DSP, Telcos (or suppliers thereof) can and do pay top dollar for that sort of processor, e.g. Ericsson signed a deal with Compaq to buy $1 billion worth of Alpha processors a few years ago, and they were sure never cheap.

Quote
IBM hasnt been able to ship enough G5's to its primary buyer Apple.


Ars technica forwarded a theory a while back that says the supply problems were due to Apple not ordering enough parts and expecting more to be instantly available - not a sensible move given it take 3 months to make a new batch.  IBM did admit to having yield problems in early 04 but never since.  They don't seem to have problems making millions of processors for Microsoft.

Quote
And of course you are still missing the point, which of these products use the fastest G5's (only apple), which of these use the dual core G5's (only apple).


IBM have already announced dual core blades...
I agree the really high end 970s are being driven by Apple and the pressure to push them will be off after Apple leave.  However with PA Semi appearing both IBM and Freeescale now have some pretty serious competition and will need to compete.  It could be argued that this is only an "embedded processor" but that doesn't mean it'll be a useless desktop chip or slow, it's looking like it'll be just as good as anything Intel will be producing.

IBM look like they want to get into the low end server market, they're getting pressured by AMD now and would probably rather have their own chip in their boxes.  AMD and Intel are giving up on clock speed, IBM are still pushing upwards so a cut down POWER6 could be just right for that market - Apple or not.

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I disagree, who exactly in your opinion bought more then 2 million G4s last year to take Apple out of #1 G4 buyer in your opinion?? My info says Apple is number 1, if you think I am wrong, you are going to have to come up with a name and some facts.


So, you're saying you are right because, well, you just are?

I haven't heard who but I have heard they aren't the biggest G4 customer, given it is primarily an embedded part and that's Freescale's business this shouldn't be terribly surprising.  

Quote
I mean your Freescale comment is funny, but not alot of reason with it, even you agree Apple bought the most G5's yet they couldnt get one good enough for a laptop could they??


The lower clocked G5s have long run cool enough for laptop, the problem seems to have been the recently replaced Northridge, it ran both slow and hot.