AOS4 & Amigaone

[dammy]

by reflect on 2005/11/6 14:15:16

They take a commodity motherboard with equivalent or better specs, then compare the prices and come up "the A1 is overpriced!". Now, have you ever considered the other costs, apart from manufacturing?

But that is not the consumer's problem, it's Eyetechs.  Consumers want quality for their hard earned money.  Things get even worse when the prices are far too high and quality is far too low.  Hell, it's pushed A1s into laptop pricing, and not too many people are going to spend that type of money for an OS not out of beta running on a buggy mobo.  Let alone the other items you need to buy to make the mobo/cpu into a computer.

The A1 series is a flop, get over it already.

Dammy

[reflect]

So now the argument shifts from money to quality? Yes, it's pricey for the reasons stated above. Yes, some thing don't work quite as they were intended. But ask the owners if they're happy or not. That's the only thing that matters in the end anyway. The A1 ownerns I've met and know, most of them have said "yeah, DMA/Ethernet/USB is a shame, but I(or my dealer) have worked around that problem so it's no longer a problem for me" and they all seem quite happy with their purchase.

It seems to me that just cause some people don't like the hardware for one reason or another, they try their hardest to discourage others (and to my knowledge, not one of these 'die-hard anti-advocates' even owns an A1). Makes you wonder, doesn't it.

[McGee]

I'll agree with you that the A1 is a flop at the current time, simply because it's not readily available. (Its owners certainly seem pleased with it, though 8-)).

However, OS4 is already an awesome achievement - as is, and the final version is due by year's end. Here's hoping that new hardware (such as Troika's Amy) also materializes soon. Obviously, that will be key to OS4's future.

Btw, all the best on AROS. Very cool project.

[cecilia]

wonea wrote:
AmigaOS4 is the official way which I like, looks interesting.

I'm not sure what this "official" thing really means. I've had my hands on MorphOS, OS4, WinUAE and AROS. they ALL "Feel" like amiga. They each have certain things that are different, but as an Amiga user since about the mid/late-80's I'd have to say I know an Amiga when I touch it.

AmigaONE is ridicously expensive, new boards will be out when AOS4 arrives if ever?  Been waiting for over a year!

it's only expensive if you don't want to pay that price. If I had the money I'd get a Micro because that motherboard fixed a few problems that the previous boards had, Plus it's smaller (for me, that's a plus). And USB does work on an amigaone, altho it depends on the device. believe me, I'm the one at all the meeting I go to who is BE-tching about this!

I think this idea that "new boards will be out when AOS4 arrives" is incorrect. I've never heard that the HW is waiting on the software. In fact from what I've seen the continuing development of HW is not connected to the software at all. I mean, the beta testers for OS4 continue to make improvements on a daily basis. Which is why the OS is basically "done" at this point. I wouldn't be waiting for anything if you wanted a Micro. The only issue seems to be finding a board from a dealer. dealers have to order a certain number at a time (prepayed). and they have to order the exact same number of OS4 copies. It's a bit clumsy, but that's the way it is. It's not like anyone asked MY opinion on how to do this. :roll:

AROS has a great philosophy, but highly doubt it will be finished for a couple of years

As I said, I've played around with AROS and it has alot of potential. You can't actually DO anything ATM, really. But I like seeing it develop. It rather exciting.

as far as I'm concerned anything that keeps amiga moving along is a good thing. this way we don't have all our eggs in one basket. there will always be amiga in some form around. to which I say, Yippie!

[Tigger]

reflect wrote:
Now, have you ever considered the other costs, apart from manufacturing?

As in, licensing/buying the schematics for the design you're going to use? Paying someone to make changes to that design .. cause, no matter what some people say, the original Teron and the A1 aren't exactly the same. They have evolved over time, and that's not cause someone was nice enough to just update them for free.

I realize you dont know alot about this stuff, but now you are just getting silly.  The production Teron boards and the Production A1's are the same hardware, built from the same raw PWB, with the same parts list, Eyetech just reflashes the ROM so OS4 will run on it, something monkeys or even Alan can be trained to do.   Eyetech didnt pay to have the board redesigned, get real.  As for your 50K, thats pretty good pay for 2 or 3 weeks work, really know companies that pay like that for board designers, if so let me know, I need to send them some resumes.  A complete board design gets done here in 2 months tops, a redesign (as you are claiming happened) gets done in a few weeks, virutally noone pays 50K for 3 weeks work.  They would be better of hiring a guy for a year at 50K, and get half a dozen boards out of him.  But then you wouldnt have your 50K example of how much it cost Eyetech to do a redesign they didn't do.   Eyetech is recovering money from their failed design that never worked, you might not have a problem with that, but I do.  I dont think the Amiga community should be paying for Alans failed attempt at making his own PPC board.
    -Tig  

[Tigger]

I think this idea that "new boards will be out when AOS4 arrives" is incorrect. I've never heard that the HW is waiting on the software. In fact from what I've seen the continuing development of HW is not connected to the software at all. I mean, the beta testers for OS4 continue to make improvements on a daily basis. Which is why the OS is basically "done" at this point. I wouldn't be waiting for anything if you wanted a Micro. The only issue seems to be finding a board from a dealer. dealers have to order a certain number at a time (prepayed). and they have to order the exact same number of OS4 copies. It's a bit clumsy, but that's the way it is. It's not like anyone asked MY opinion on how to do this. :roll:

Cecilia,

There are no more Micro boards, we've had dealers for weeks talking about getting some in RSN, and that time has really come and gone.  Due to the chip situation, I dont' think there will be any more boards (or in actuality a significant number of new boards) available ever.  That means we are waiting for new hardware (likely Troika) or a port to another PPC platform (Apple, Genesi) to see a significant increase in OS4 sales.  Otherwise we have what a jokingly refer to as the holy 1000, which will fade into oblivion over the next couple of years.  
     -Tig

[dammy]

So now the argument shifts from money to quality? Yes, it's pricey for the reasons stated above. Yes, some thing don't work quite as they were intended. But ask the owners if they're happy or not. That's the only thing that matters in the end anyway. The A1 ownerns I've met and know, most of them have said "yeah, DMA/Ethernet/USB is a shame, but I(or my dealer) have worked around that problem so it's no longer a problem for me" and they all seem quite happy with their purchase.

Regardless if the software is disabling some/all the faulty MAI chipset's DMA capabilities, it's what the prospective customers are thinking about that matters. I'm hearing on here and else where it's the price and the lack of support from Eyetech that makes people pass on A1 series.  OS4 maybe a very nice OS, it's just not the only Amiga-like OS in town.  That means there are alternatives to it and that gives alternatives to different machines other then Eyetech's.  

I think sales of A1s prove my point, it's a financial flop.  So much so, I'm betting Hyperion is in no hurry to release anything but "beta" code in fear of having a hord of coders wanting their long due monies.  What's the English phrase for this, "buggered"?

Dammy

[reflect]

It was an *example* - not something to be taken as truth. But if you think that the A1 has not undergone revisions and alterations, you're the one being silly.

Eyetech, afaik, licensed the design. That means they bought the design, produced some prototypes and then revised them as problems cropped up. Look at the Micro Mk2 for example (I have one here). Put an Mk2 and an Mk3 (aka -C) next to eachother and you see alot of differences, and I mean ALOT. So saying they're just "reflashing the rom" just makes you look ignorant.

Next you say that the Amiga community shouldn't pay for someone's failed attempts. The fact is, apart from the Phase5 Cyberstorm and Blizzard PPC boards, what other boards are available right here, right now that are capable of running AOS4? Do you even own an A1? If not - you haven't shelled out for it and I wonder why you seem to have shouldered the title of "defender of the amiga community"? Contrary to VisCorp, Gateway and whatnot, Eyetech actually put a product out there. Now, you might not like the price, you might not like the specifications - FINE. I don't preach to you, so why do you feel the need to preach to me?

[Tigger]

reflect wrote:

Eyetech, afaik, licensed the design.

No thats not what they did.

That means they bought the design, produced some prototypes and then revised them as problems cropped up. Look at the Micro Mk2 for example (I have one here). Put an Mk2 and an Mk3 (aka -C) next to eachother and you see alot of differences, and I mean ALOT. So saying they're just "reflashing the rom" just makes you look ignorant.

No its not, finished boards get sent to Eyetech these are the same boards as the Terons, all that happens to the board after the manufacturer makes them and ships them to Eyetech is they flash the Rom.   Eyetech is not tweaking the boards, thats not there job, and as they have proven in the past, its not something they are capable of doing.
   

Next you say that the Amiga community shouldn't pay for someone's failed attempts.

Again you don't understand the story.  Before deciding to buy the Terons, Alan spent alot of money failing to design his own PPC.  I dont think the Amiga Community should have to pay more for the Teron, because Alan spent lots of money making boards that didnt work when power was applied to them.
    -Tig

[Seehund]

reflect wrote:
So now the argument shifts from money to quality?

I think it's about both, and then some.

Yes, it's pricey for the reasons stated above. Yes, some thing don't work quite as they were intended. But ask the owners if they're happy or not. That's the only thing that matters in the end anyway.

That's the main thing that matters to THEM, the happy current "AmigaOne" customers. But AmigaOS must be sold to more people than those who are (still) happy with their already purchased "AmigaOnes".

Also, Eyetech are presumably like other computer shops, and would like to attract more customers as well, so in case anyone gives a toss about Eyetech's business, they too would benefit from actually finding good hardware to offer at sane prices.

It seems to me that just cause some people don't like the hardware for one reason or another, they try their hardest to discourage others (and to my knowledge, not one of these 'die-hard anti-advocates' even owns an A1). Makes you wonder, doesn't it.

Huh? On the contrary, I find it quite obvious and natural that those who shun a product for obvious and well documented reasons (faults, price, availability, customer support, whatever) would NOT spend their money on buying that product.

In case anyone would care, personally I'm not trying to discourage others from buying an "AmigaOne". Go on, have fun. But that doesn't mean I'm supposed to feel compelled to shut up when I see false marketing for it, or that I will abstain from mentioning the damage that this product and its vendors and licensors have done, only because we'd be expected to have some misguided loyalty to an arbitrarily applied trademark.

OTOH, one weird thing is that some of the product's biggest "unpaid salespersons" have NOT bought the product, at the same time as they work to hide flaws and discredit valid criticism and skeptics. Same thing with inexperienced users, who often don't seem to have much computer experience other than from their old Amigas, who join in the praising chant and argue against the exposure of any flaws and disadvantages.
(No names, but obviously I'm not referring to you, reflect).

In case you're talking about some boring old "red vs blue" game, then it seems to me like it's almost only "AmigaOne" users who have made the product's more or less hidden faults visible through use, and thus they are the people who have taken the hits. Faults isolated to the ArticiaS have been exposed by several parties though, both independent ones as well as "red and blue".

[Seehund]

reflect wrote:

Eyetech, afaik, licensed the design. That means they bought the design, produced some prototypes and then revised them as problems cropped up. Look at the Micro Mk2 for example (I have one here). Put an Mk2 and an Mk3 (aka -C) next to eachother and you see alot of differences, and I mean ALOT. So saying they're just "reflashing the rom" just makes you look ignorant.

[edit: Tigger already set you straight on that bit.]

Next you say that the Amiga community shouldn't pay for someone's failed attempts. The fact is, apart from the Phase5 Cyberstorm and Blizzard PPC boards, what other boards are available right here, right now that are capable of running AOS4?

Macs and Pegasoses is the glaringly obvious answer to the question "if one makes a consumer PPC desktop OS, for which hardware would one try to sell it?" They're perfectly capable of running AmigaOS. It's AmigaOS, or whatever other OS, that needs to be adapted to hardware, not vice versa. From the developers we always hear how quick and easy it would be to make AOS4 run on Pegs/Macs, it's certainly not technical issues that's the problem here.
There might be more obscure options, but why not go with the obvious and with what more people could actually be expected to buy or already own for starters? Few options is the unfortunate effect of going PPC only, but that's actually a (partially) technical matter for once.

[Waccoon]

reflect:  It seems to me that just cause some people don't like the hardware for one reason or another, they try their hardest to discourage others (and to my knowledge, not one of these 'die-hard anti-advocates' even owns an A1). Makes you wonder, doesn't it.

For people who believe the AmigaOne is an update to a classic Amiga, then, yes, I suppose it's worth it, especially given the prices of the alternatives.  For those who want a new Amiga that will be viable in the future, AmigaOne doesn't cut it.  Compared to non-official solutions like Pegasos, AmigaOne still doesn't cut it.

I'm sure most people are looking for a bright future for Amiga, not a re-hash of 90's technology and software.  We've had a looooooong time to deal with Amiga since Commodore went under.  It's time to move forward with new systems, or dump all this marketting nonsense that attempts to woo PC users to the Amiga platform, like Hyperion's "20 Reasons" list.

No matter what, there's just not enough interest to justify further development.  I know I keep saying "critical mass" over and over, but that's precicely the problem.  So long as Amiga makes money, the platform can live.  Whether they make money depends on demand, and with no future support, there is no demand.

What about people who bought AmigaOne as a replacement for their classic Amigas?  Are they going to continue to run their classic applications, and avoid buying any "new" Amiga hardware?  Re-releases have short-term profit potential, like the Atari Flashback, but that's no way to establish a solid market.

Tigger:  The production Teron boards and the Production A1's are the same hardware, built from the same raw PWB, with the same parts list, Eyetech just reflashes the ROM so OS4 will run on it, something monkeys or even Alan can be trained to do.

My impression is that the Teron was semi-modular, allowing certain changes without a complere redesign and recertification (made-to-order, if you will).  Replacing a flashable EEPROM with a ROM is one example.  With so little official information available, I've all but gotten lost regarding the manufacturing details, but I have heard that Eyetech had to contract a manufacturer to build the boards based on Mai's design, and they did have certain "substitutions", such as the ROM lock.

I believe you're right that a redesign wasn't used for the AmigaOne, but it's not strictly a stock Teron board.  People did just have an argument recently about whether the AmigaOne's on-board audio works or not, and found that some AmigaOnes have the audio chip, while others do not.  Or, did that only apply to the AmigaOne Micro?

Maybe the audio chips just fell off in transit, and Eyetech decided to sell the boards, anyway.

Dammy:  Regardless if the software is disabling some/all the faulty MAI chipset's DMA capabilities, it's what the prospective customers are thinking about that matters.

Yup.  Based on Mai Logic's broken website, it doesn't appear the company is very active.  So, where do we go from here?  How can I feel confident about AmigaOne when its only hardware supplier is playing dead?

Dammy:  So much so, I'm betting Hyperion is in no hurry to release anything but "beta" code in fear of having a hord of coders wanting their long due monies

Now this is unfair.  How long has OS4 been in the testing phase and has seen active development after the prerelease?  This is not a "beta" project.

Hyperion is probably the only company that has given a damn about the Amiga over the last decade.  Arguably, even longer, given how much Commodore screwed it up.

Seehund:  In case anyone would care, personally I'm not trying to discourage others from buying an "AmigaOne". Go on, have fun.

Yes.  The reason for complaining is so companies get the message that they could be doing things better.  If you're happy with AmigaOne, then good for you.  But, it just could be so much more, and could sell much more, too.

Not to mention work properly.

Seehund:  Macs and Pegasoses is the glaringly obvious answer to the question "if one makes a consumer PPC desktop OS, for which hardware would one try to sell it?" They're perfectly capable of running AmigaOS. It's AmigaOS, or whatever other OS, that needs to be adapted to hardware, not vice versa.

The holy grail of computing is turning hardware into software.  I don't care about the hardware so long as it doesn't suck and is affordable.  It's AmigaOS I want.

Well, sort of.  I'm becoming more and more aware of severe design flaws in UNIX and other OSes, and AmigaOS isn't exactly a gem, either.  I guess what I should say is I want something new that resembles AmigaOS.

I miss being able to have fun with a computer without resorting to playing games.

[Tigger]

Waccoon wrote:
I believe you're right that a redesign wasn't used for the AmigaOne, but it's not strictly a stock Teron board.  People did just have an argument recently about whether the AmigaOne's on-board audio works or not, and found that some AmigaOnes have the audio chip, while others do not.  Or, did that only apply to the AmigaOne Micro?

Maybe the audio chips just fell off in transit, and Eyetech decided to sell the boards, anyway.

Originally the sound chip didnt work, it was believed to be a hardware problem in the PWB, so on subsequent builds of the board, the part was deleted from the partlist, thats why on the majority of A1's there are pads for the part, but no part.   In recent weeks, a sound driver for the chip has been written, which seems to be working fine, of course now the majority of the A1's dont have the chip the driver is trying to support, however if you have the chip, the on board sound is now working.   Part deletion saved a dollar or two I would guess on parts cost, if someone tells me the actual chip number, I could give you a more definitive cost.
    -Tig

[FrankBrana]

@Tiger

If everybody use UAE, wont be evolution at all in amiga land.Buy machines, AMiGA or PEGASOS, but support real machines. Yes these machines we dreamt for years, and now that are developed, everyone finds "flaws" on it.

C´mon. Support OS4, support MOS. Whatever option you choose, support real and modern hardware.

[dammy]

by FrankBrana on 2005/11/7 13:18:16

Buy machines, AMiGA or PEGASOS, but support real machines. Yes these machines we dreamt for years, and now that are developed, everyone finds "flaws" on it.

Why buy it all if they do not have any advantage to other computers?  It's the OS that matters, not the machine.  With the era of ~$500 laptops that are faster and cheaper then the bare bone PPC cpu/mobo , it's rather foolish to pay for more and get less.  

That is why Amiga was a big success, it did far more for far less.  Yet today, people think of doing far less for more cash is a winner.

Dammy

[Seehund]

FrankBrana wrote:
@Tiger

If everybody use UAE, wont be evolution at all in amiga land.Buy machines, AMiGA or PEGASOS, but support real machines. Yes these machines we dreamt for years, and now that are developed, everyone finds "flaws" on it.

C´mon. Support OS4, support MOS. Whatever option you choose, support real and modern hardware.

UAE runs on real and modern hardware. There is no Amiga hardware and no of evolution of such, and I don't think that many dreamt of poorly performing, faulty and overpriced Terons back when people used to think there one day could come new Amigas. That was when people wanted new Amigas because the old Amigas had lost against the competition due to poor performance and a high price!

So in case anyone would be interested in "supporting" a hardware vendor for their production of real and modern hardware, then he could do so by running UAE on such hardware. He would not do it by buying an "AmigaOne", which nowadays is only barely real (as in "available") and it's not more modern today than it was 4 years ago.

If we're supposed to think of what/who we're supporting when we buy something, then I think buying an "AmigaOne" is supporting consumer fraud, an unnecessary and mostly(?) unwanted monopoly, and stagnation of development. But all hardware vendors are commercial enterprises and shouldn't need "support" to be viable, at least not of the enforced "Amiga hardware licensing" kind. I think what you as a customer want and/or need is more relevant. Buy an "AmigaOne" or whatever because you like it or need it.

I feel no obligation to "support" Eyetech just because they have bought the rights to arbitrarily use a certain trademark for their distribution of 3rd party hardware. It's too bad that the current AOS4 sales model is apparently created to subsidise an otherwise irrelevant hardware vendor.