AOS4 & Amigaone

[Tigger]

Thomas wrote:
Regarding trolls like Tigger, they always tell that MorphOS is done and AmigaOS4 is not. Well, from my subjective opinion AmigaOS 4 pre 3 feels much more "done" than MorphOS 1.4.5.

I'm sorry Thomas, but I am fairly sure calling me a Troll is against the policies of the website.  I didnt say MorphOS is done did I.  Ben & company keep preaching that there product is not done yet.  I dont think anyone should buy an OS that is described by those selling it as "not done yet".   It doesnt really matter because at this point there is no new hardware available that runs OS4.  I really dont care about MorphOS, if he wants a PPC solution however he can buy one now unlike the current AmigaOne solution.  And Genesi's hardware is better then the Teron boards, sorry but MAI's chip is busted thats why everyone except Eyetech dumped them.  We didnt do it because it was fun, Rockwell didnt do it because it was fun, the Barbie folks didnt do it because it was fun, the part has flaws, lots of companies had to drop them because of it.  When/If new hardware is available (Troika as I mentioned), it won't have the flaws and hopefully will have better prices and OS4 may be an alternative, but right now if he wants to run his current amiga software, one of the UAE clients will run it fastest (on a cheap x86), followed by Pegasos boards (which are available at faster speeds then the currently non-shipping A1's) followed by used A1 because new ones are not available.  Thats not trolling, thats the facts in the current situation.    
    -Tig

[reflect]

As with the original Amiga, the price of the operating system is embedded into the package. Consider that before you state it is overpriced.

[HammerD]

@Tigger

Your facts surrounding the flaws of the A1 are out-dated.  Sure, there were problems and there _are_ problems with some of the earlier AmigaONE XE and SE's.  But since a year now when the MicroA1 "C" version of the AmigaONE started shipping, there are no hardware problems that prevent the advertised operation of the board.

Every motherboard, chipset, and cpu have errata.  Most of these are worked around in firmware or software.  That is exactly the case with the MicroA1 "C" version.  It works as advertised with USB/DMA/IDE/Video, etc.  

So, update your facts.  Since the last year the only shipping AmigaONE's (new ones) have been MicroA1 "C" versions, which, as far as the end user is concerned, work without [hardware] problems of the earlier (might I add: developer pre-release) boards.  

The fact that no new boards are available and the price is rather high is a separate issue.

[Tigger]

HammerD wrote:
@Tigger

Your facts surrounding the flaws of the A1 are out-dated.  

No there not, but thanks for playing.

Sure, there were problems and there _are_ problems with some of the earlier AmigaONE XE and SE's.  But since a year now when the MicroA1 "C" version of the AmigaONE started shipping, there are no hardware problems that prevent the advertised operation of the board.

Sure there are, now drivers have been written to get around the hardware problems in the MicroA1, but it is still using a flawed Articia bridge which prevents the hardware from running as it should and requires the system to perform in a substandard manner.  Before you go into a big rant about no it doesnt, have you worked with the MAI part in question, have you worked with people that have, explain exactly how you think the drivers are getting around the articia's problem without slowing the system down??

Every motherboard, chipset, and cpu have errata.  Most of these are worked around in firmware or software.  That is exactly the case with the MicroA1 "C" version.  It works as advertised with USB/DMA/IDE/Video, etc.  

Works like advertised in what way??  DMA has been slowed down, drops TCP/IP packets for fun, is that part of the advertisement I missed??  Every system has errata is pretty much true, however most systems dont have a fatally flawed chip on them.  In fact I believe the Terons/A1's are the only product who shipped with the Articia, though lots of us were designing with it at one time.

So, update your facts.  Since the last year the only shipping AmigaONE's (new ones) have been MicroA1 "C" versions, which, as far as the end user is concerned, work without [hardware] problems of the earlier (might I add: developer pre-release) boards.  

I'm sorry the early boards were not sold as developer pre-releases, I can't take any of your comments seriously if you actually believe that.  Eyetech and Hyperion sold them to anyone with money and told them OS4 was coming soon, 3 years later its still not done according to them, there is no more hardware and we have people explaining that they were developer pre-releases, thats why there were problems.  Funny Alan nor Benji brought that up at any of the shows I saw them at hawking there wares.  

The fact that no new boards are available and the price is rather high is a separate issue.

No its actually the same issue.  MAI's parts are unavailable because the people at Rockwell and others who used there faulty parts dealt with them.   Telling people buy OS4 because you think its great but not pointing out that the hardware currently in use will likely never be available again is pretty silly dont you think.  Hopefully Troika comes around, runs great and is a new home for OS4, but right now OS4 is an unfinished OS running on unavailable hardware.
     -Tig

[Tigger]

reflect wrote:
As with the original Amiga, the price of the operating system is embedded into the package. Consider that before you state it is overpriced.

ITS OVERPRICED, which part do you not understand.  Unless you believe that OS4, is a $300 OS, then its overpriced, and even then its really overpriced.  MacMini with OSX and lots of bundled software goes for $499, its faster, its more powerful, it has more features, it'll edit High Definition Video for gods sake.  Plug in you monitor, keyboard and mouse and go.  For $499, Dell will sell me a laptop that runs WinUAE faster then an A1, again AmigaOne is overpriced, its not currently available and Hyperion says the OS to run on it isnt done yet.  
   -Tig

[pixie]

Sure, there were problems and there _are_ problems with some of the earlier AmigaONE XE and SE's.

Didn't know the price of AmigaOne had gone down, for me is its  biggest flaw.. :roll:

[HammerD]

@ Tigger

Sorry, I have owned a microA1 "C" now for a year and don't have any of these problems you are describing.  I think you should get your facts straight before continuing to make yourself look like someone who doesn't really know what they are talking about.

Do you even own a microA1 "C" version and do you have hard data to backup your claims of these "problems"?

I'm not saying there aren't problems with chips.  The MAI chip does work a bit differently than one would expect but this does not mean it is "flawed".  This is how it was designed.  You can argue whether or not that was a poor design decision or not, but the bottom line for the end user is that if they purchase a microA1 "C" production version all advertised features will work for OS4.  That includes onboard graphics, sound, UDMA-100, DMA Ethernet, USB, etc etc.

If you choose to believe (and again I'd like to see your hard data) that there are existing, under the current version of OS4, these problems you mention, that is your own judgement.  But back it up with proof otherwise you're just trolling.

@thread

Don't let Tigger scare you.  The microA1 "C" hardware features _do_ indeed work with OS4. USB/DMA/IDE/Ethernet/on-board graphics/sound, etc...

[MskoDestny]

Well comparing it to the Mac Mini isn't terribly fair since it's arguable that the Pegasos is overpriced in comparison to the Mac Mini as well. Not as overpriced as the A1 of course, but neither are exactly great deals.

I don't understand why it's so important to you that the folks at Hyperion declare OS4 finished. What the people in charge say about it's level of completion has no effect on the user experience. I might question their business sense, but I suppose I might question the business sense of anyone trying to revive the Amiga platform in any way shape or form.

The cache coherency bug is unfortunate, but it's not a showstopper (at least not as far as OS4 is concerned, it's a problem if you want to run PPC Linux though). Obviously manually flushing cache lines before doing DMA is less than ideal, but it's not like there aren't other platforms with this limitation (the SH-4 for instance doesn't support hardware cache coherency at all and it did a reasonable job in the Dreamcast).

On a personal level, the showstopper is the price. A1 boards are just too expensive for my tastes (the lack of availability besides second hand sales is a bit of a damper as well). Hopefully Troika's board will be out soon, but they haven't set a release date.

[reflect]

ITS OVERPRICED, which part do you not understand. Unless you believe that OS4, is a $300 OS, then its overpriced, and even then its really overpriced. MacMini with OSX and lots of bundled software goes for $499, its faster, its more powerful, it has more features, it'll edit High Definition Video for gods sake.

And you compare the Mac mini, something that is selling by the thousands each week, with this board? Please connect some wires before you open your mouth.

[jkirk]

Tigger wrote:

reflect wrote:
As with the original Amiga, the price of the operating system is embedded into the package. Consider that before you state it is overpriced.

ITS OVERPRICED, which part do you not understand.  Unless you believe that OS4, is a $300 OS, then its overpriced, and even then its really overpriced.  MacMini with OSX and lots of bundled software goes for $499, its faster, its more powerful, it has more features, it'll edit High Definition Video for gods sake.  Plug in you monitor, keyboard and mouse and go.  For $499, Dell will sell me a laptop that runs WinUAE faster then an A1, again AmigaOne is overpriced, its not currently available and Hyperion says the OS to run on it isnt done yet.  
   -Tig

and how many thousands of dells and macs are produced at a single production run? without a large production run the cost is high. eyetech could not produce a high enough quantity to allow a lower price. as for genesi they can skirt around that issue with bplan(since they are a manufacturer) eyetech has to pay someone else to produce for them.

[cecilia]

HammerD wrote:
@Tigger

Your facts surrounding the flaws of the A1 are out-dated.  Sure, there were problems and there _are_ problems with some of the earlier AmigaONE XE and SE's.  But since a year now when the MicroA1 "C" version of the AmigaONE started shipping, there are no hardware problems that prevent the advertised operation of the board.

exactly. I really think people have to see an Micro in action. OS4 has been improved and seems to me about 95% done. Programs like DVPlayer was great in beta and just gets better now that it's available.

it's exciting to see how things improve and move forward. and that excitment is what pulled me into the amiga years and years ago!

[Tigger]

jkirk wrote:

and how many thousands of dells and macs are produced at a single production run? without a large production run the cost is high. eyetech could not produce a high enough quantity to allow a lower price. as for genesi they can skirt around that issue with bplan(since they are a manufacturer) eyetech has to pay someone else to produce for them.

Guys understand AmigaOne is not as high priced as it is because its made in small quantities, I know your heroes Alan and Benji tell you that, but its not true.  Alans stuff is made at made at a major contract manufacturer (not as big as us, but not a small company) and the reason for the cost is who Alan has to pay, not how much Alan has to pay for production.  Production on the Micro is sub 250, thats parts, thats labor, thats finished tested boards.  I'm sorry but at $800+ there is alot of fluff.  The Yellow Dog Linux guys were going to sell the board for $449 and make money on it till they found out it wouldnt run Linux, how could they do that, if the production costs are super high as you guys keep saying??
    -Tig
 

[Lando]

Don't let Tigger scare you. The microA1 "C" hardware features _do_ indeed work with OS4. USB/DMA/IDE/Ethernet/on-board graphics/sound, etc...

Well, they do now, yes (at least with OS4, although not with Linux, as the Linux authors don't want dozens of workarounds for the A1 hardware flaws entered into the main source tree).  

That is part of the reason OS4 is ~3 years late - the time it's taken them to work around the broken aspects of the Articia.

But this is completely irrelevant now, anyway, since there are / will be no more A1's, unless you can find one second hand (and if you do, I wouldn't pay more than £100 for it, with OS4).

The biggest problem has been Eyetech.  The closest they have ever been to hardware production is printing out stickers for Terons, DCE scandoublers and G-Rex PCI busboards (sorry... I mean AmigaOnes, Eyetech INSD2 scandoublers and Eyetech Predator SE PCI busboards)...  No wonder there have been problems.

At the end of the day, anyone stupid enough to pay $800+ for one of those things got what they deserved.  I have no sympathy.

[Stevo]

At first I thought of quoting and pointing out the mistakes. But that would have me dig up the numerous posts and news to "prove" that (eventually I guess). Flame me, but I couldn't be bothered.

Bottom line: In this community you have AmigaOS4 and MorphOS. Both are (doing) the same thing from a user point of view. Search the web for the reason(s) of having two AmigaOS (classic) successors and why people think their OS is best. From a HW point of view: OS4 need an A1 to work on (untill now at least) and MorphOS a Pegasos (untill now at least). Search the web about specs, pros and cons.

This might not be incredibly helpful, but I'm afraid it's the only sensible advice there is. History has led this community to split up and favour his/hers choice of OS to be "better" than the other to a point that "better" equals "It's teh real" or "it would be AmigaOS if it hadn't for..."

Search the web for teh truth, or wait for this thread (or another) to exactly point out why one OS and HW platform is better than the other. I advice Google ;-)  

[Tigger]

HammerD wrote:
@ Tigger

Sorry, I have owned a microA1 "C" now for a year and don't have any of these problems you are describing.  I think you should get your facts straight before continuing to make yourself look like someone who doesn't really know what they are talking about.

Sure you do, to get rid of the cache coherancy issue (and other issues with the Articia) Hyperion hacked the drivers, slowing the entire DMA system down, its great you don't see a problem it doesnt mean the systems DMA isn't dog slow because of the hack.  As for the TCP/IP issue, thats directly from the Roadshow/Eth3com.device guys, if you think you know more then them and I about TCP/IP, hey thats great, I got a job for you.   Please send me your resume.

I'm not saying there aren't problems with chips.  The MAI chip does work a bit differently than one would expect but this does not mean it is "flawed".  This is how it was designed.  

No, its not how it was designed, if it was how it was designed then when I or the Rockwell guys or the Barbie guys call them up telling them it doesnt work according to their spec, and telling them what it really does, they dont argue with you, they dont blame other equipment, they dont suggest ESD damage, you get the idea.   I've got a dozen of the chips in my lab, if you have fewer than that, and have never hooked a scope to one, please stop arguing that the parts work correctly.

You can argue whether or not that was a poor design decision or not, but the bottom line for the end user is that if they purchase a microA1 "C" production version all advertised features will work for OS4.  That includes onboard graphics, sound, UDMA-100, DMA Ethernet, USB, etc etc.

As I have pointed out, and as others have, DMA was crippled by fixing the hardware problem in the drivers, the Ethernet port has problems according to the folks doing your ethernet driver and TCP/IP stack, who exactly are you to be telling them they are wrong??

@thread
Don't let Tigger scare you.  The microA1 "C" hardware features _do_ indeed work with OS4. USB/DMA/IDE/Ethernet/on-board graphics/sound, etc...

@thread

Don't let someone who knows nothing about how something works vs how its supposed to work convince you that the broken board is not broken.   Its not an real issue anymore, because the broken board is also not going to be manufactured anymore.
   -Tig

[spirantho]

Funny how these arguments always break out when someone mentions Pegasos and AmigaOne in the same sentence.

I have two points for you:
1) I'm posting this on an AmigaOne (A1XE-G4@800, latest AWeb, AOS4 PR3)
2) I'm not selling it.

I think both of those points are a pretty good way of refuting the "A1 is broken" argument, myself.