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Offline c64_d0c

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Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #104 from previous page: October 21, 2005, 08:17:09 PM »
my bet is on the xbox360, it will rock the console world, but alot of people will buy a ps3 when it comes also since they got the xbox360. the nintendo will be the losing part again thats for sure... i am defently going to buy the xbox360, the xboxs is the 2005 amiga thats for sure :)
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Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #105 on: October 21, 2005, 09:38:36 PM »
Where are the hard facts that Nintendo loses money selling consoles?  2 link from established news sites have shown that Ninendo makes money selling consoles.

http://nintendoinsider.com/site/EEEZuAypVuTuOJPzyb.php
Quote
In the final corner, Nintendo has it much better. When the system wars began, Nintendo GameCube was actually making money for each system sold, as Nintendo didn’t bother with all the extra non-gaming functions of its competitors, like DVD movie playback. The system was still making Nintendo money at $150, and it wasn’t until its $99 price tag that it was estimated Nintendo was losing money – but only in the single digits.


http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000407062281
Quote
Update: it’s also important to remember that Nintendo doesn’t sell its consoles at a loss. If a $99 Revolution is a real possibility, we can expect the system to be only a fraction as powerful as the PlayStation 3 or Xbox 360.


Short of an accounting statement from Nintendo, what more proof do you need?  This is common industry knowledge.  I shouldn't even have to be defending this because it's so well-known that Nintendo has always profitted from console sales.

http://www.gamepro.com/nintendo/gamecube/games/news/22820.shtml

http://www.red-mercury.com/mmceo/mmceo05_20_2002.html

the link if you want to BUY a progressive scan enabled gamecube if yours was bought on or after May 2004: http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/systems/nintendogamecube/component_faq.jsp

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/30/nintendo_q2_results/
Quote
A surge in sales of its GameCube console pushed Nintendo's second-quarter income almost 100 per cent over the same period last year.

For the three months to 30 June 2004, Nintendo achieved a net income of ¥22.6bn ($202m), 96.5 per cent up on Q2 2003's ¥11.5bn ($103m).

Driving the gain was a 712.5 per cent increase in unit shipments, from 80,000 in Q2 2003 to 650,000 this past quarter.


log:
Oct 2003 - Nintendo production had been stopped due to low demand so a $99 is put into place. SUPRISE - sales jump higher than expcected.
Jan 2004 - Rev C Gamecubes are manufactured to meet demand.
May 2004 - Shipments hit the US market
Jun 2004 - 650,000 units shipped last quater and profits double for Nintendo

remember if they are on a store shelf, the manufacturer has already been PAID.

I can always get a life, can trolls EVER stop being trolls?
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #106 on: October 21, 2005, 11:11:03 PM »
Quote
log:
Oct 2003 - Nintendo production had been stopped due to low demand so a $99 is put into place. SUPRISE - sales jump higher than expcected.
Jan 2004 - Rev C Gamecubes are manufactured to meet demand.
May 2004 - Shipments hit the US market
Jun 2004 - 650,000 units shipped last quater and profits double for Nintendo

remember if they are on a store shelf, the manufacturer has already been PAID.

I can always get a life, can trolls EVER stop being trolls?


I got my gamecube from radioshack for 99.00. Now if nintendo got that whole 99 bucks, they might have made a profit. But they didnt, RadioShack took a cut. After all, they have advertising, stores and land to pay for, sales staff to pay, management overhead, etc. So radio shack makes say 25 bucks.  Now theres almost always a middle man, ie the distributor that doles the machines out to the retail outlets. They have buildings/land/staff etc. So say they make 10 bucks off that device.  Of course the device had to get to the distributor, probably via some sort of shipping company, who charges a fee, say 5 bucks. Of course, every time money shifts hands,  the government takes a cut, sales tax, import/export taxes. Lets say uncle sam gets 2 bucks. So with our most likely generous figure here, Nintendo makes 57 dollars on that gamecube.

Nintendo probably cant make a gamecube for 57 bucks. Lets say they can though, for arguments sake. Now take into account HQ sales staff, management, programmers, hardware engineers, QA staff, the guys in the mail room, the janitor, building and land to pay for, etc. Add in the advertising budget so kids can see the game cube commercials on tv, the magazine ads, trade shows, traveling promoters, etc.

Looks like a net loss on the device. But it doesnt even matter really, because the sale of the device is just a small part of the over all business model.

Now when you zoom out you see that they make their money selling games, licensing agreements with third party developers, accessories, nintendo power magazine, roayalties from patents, selling technology to other companies, service, and a dozen other things.

And they are cash flow positive, and pretty much always have been, which is a good thing, because ive gotten a lot of enjoyment over the years using their stuff.

Focusing on one small part of the picture ( the sale of the console ) is just missing the point, and arguing for arguings sake.

Now if everybody who submitted a comment to this thread just boned up on their c/c++ we could port mono over to AROS and expand the software library for the platform to some insaine level.
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #107 on: October 22, 2005, 01:24:43 AM »
@koaftder

Marketing costs are separate and effect every company's bottom line.  Profits from one product can be subsidized to promote a less profitable one so it's not something calculated simply and don't figure directly into manufacturing costs(which can be easily calculated).  It's simply manufacturing costs we are arguing.

Also an MSRP is not always ~ twice the actual costs.  It varies across different industries.  Infact, because they expect to sell software and a memory card and maybe a controller with every console sold, I would say that the GC's MSRP is only 10-20% higher than the actual cost to manufacture.

Now from a software point of view, it costs total about $2 to burn the disc and create the packaging per unit assuming for example 100,000 units.  Now development costs for the average GC/PSP/PS2 title are ~$800,000 per title ( http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/launchnews.asp?newsid=148719 ).  So if they make 100,000 copies and sell them all, then it only cost them $10 a title.  But if it sells one million copies, then the costs are only $2.80 per title.

After about 400,000 copies are sold and a timeline is met, a game goes "Player's Choice" and sells for 20-30 bucks.  They are still making a good profit.  I would say the MSRP of $50 means the store paid probably half that, maybe a bit more.  Either way, there is profit to be made on software.
As far as 3rd party software goes, platform holders probably make about $5 a title per copy sold.

Now everybody wants to talk about the real profits being in software...well if Nintendo only makes $5 per copy, per title on 3rd party software and they only release ~4 first party console games a year with a profit of ~$17 you can begin to see how selling all those gamecubes in April-June of 2004 made them double their profits over the same quarter of the previous year.  Take into account that rarely do games sell over 400,000 copies on the GC (except 1st party games)...you begin to see why making a profit on hardware is also part of their big picture.

Quote
Now if everybody who submitted a comment to this thread just boned up on their c/c++ we could port mono over to AROS and expand the software library for the platform to some insaine level.


Yes, exactly why I started the "potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP" thread.  To move the platform forward as a whole.  Instead of support, my idea was picked about for trolling's sake.  If you read through the whole thing, I learn some things along the way but also learn who the trolls were and who actually had "constructive" critisism.  Alot of the original troll arguments against it, I dissipated much later on in the thread as the Gamecube modder/homebrew developer community made some break-thrus and an excellent MOD chip (www.qoobchip.com) was released...and is now installed in my Rev C. Gamecube (vs. my much more valuable Rev A.).

Quite a read for anyone here who wonders where the hostility toward adolescent and Waccoon comes from.  Read it all and make up your own mind.
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #108 on: October 22, 2005, 03:19:18 AM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
@koaftder

Marketing costs are separate and effect every company's bottom line.  Profits from one product can be subsidized to promote a less profitable one so it's not something calculated simply and don't figure directly into manufacturing costs(which can be easily calculated).  It's simply manufacturing costs we are arguing.

Also an MSRP is not always ~ twice the actual costs.  It varies across different industries.  Infact, because they expect to sell software and a memory card and maybe a controller with every console sold, I would say that the GC's MSRP is only 10-20% higher than the actual cost to manufacture.

Now from a software point of view, it costs total about $2 to burn the disc and create the packaging per unit assuming for example 100,000 units.  Now development costs for the average GC/PSP/PS2 title are ~$800,000 per title ( http://www.gamerankings.com/itemrankings/launchnews.asp?newsid=148719 ).  So if they make 100,000 copies and sell them all, then it only cost them $10 a title.  But if it sells one million copies, then the costs are only $2.80 per title.

After about 400,000 copies are sold and a timeline is met, a game goes "Player's Choice" and sells for 20-30 bucks.  They are still making a good profit.  I would say the MSRP of $50 means the store paid probably half that, maybe a bit more.  Either way, there is profit to be made on software.
As far as 3rd party software goes, platform holders probably make about $5 a title per copy sold.

Now everybody wants to talk about the real profits being in software...well if Nintendo only makes $5 per copy, per title on 3rd party software and they only release ~4 first party console games a year with a profit of ~$17 you can begin to see how selling all those gamecubes in April-June of 2004 made them double their profits over the same quarter of the previous year.  Take into account that rarely do games sell over 400,000 copies on the GC (except 1st party games)...you begin to see why making a profit on hardware is also part of their big picture.

Quote
Now if everybody who submitted a comment to this thread just boned up on their c/c++ we could port mono over to AROS and expand the software library for the platform to some insaine level.


Yes, exactly why I started the "potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP" thread.  To move the platform forward as a whole.  Instead of support, my idea was picked about for trolling's sake.  If you read through the whole thing, I learn some things along the way but also learn who the trolls were and who actually had "constructive" critisism.  Alot of the original troll arguments against it, I dissipated much later on in the thread as the Gamecube modder/homebrew developer community made some break-thrus and an excellent MOD chip (www.qoobchip.com) was released...and is now installed in my Rev C. Gamecube (vs. my much more valuable Rev A.).

Quite a read for anyone here who wonders where the hostility toward adolescent and Waccoon comes from.  Read it all and make up your own mind.


Youve made a lot of good points. I agree that it's important to be as profitable on the hardware as possible. Every little bit adds up.

I have a little bit of a problem with AROS. Dont get me wrong, i love AROS, i think it's great. Major gripe is memory protection. AROS seems to strive towards compatability with 3.1. I dont think this is a good direction.

I would like to float the upper level API's on the L4 kernel. We would get a tight, lightweight fast kernel with threads, first class IPC, memory protection, multiproc support that runs on like 5 major processor architectures.

ive been thinking of forking aros, but am concerned that it might end up fragmenting things and generally causing problems.
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #109 on: October 22, 2005, 08:56:58 AM »
Quote
So just because adolescent posted a like that says the gamecube was profitable through Sept 2003 and cost UNDER $109 to manufacture and I didn't, then I didn't prove it to you. He did. The fact that you insist on me doing it is what makes you a troll as you keep repeating your statements without and obvious comprehension of my replies or the facts presented to you.

You still haven't figured out that I never agreed or disagreed with Adolescent?  I asked for some proof for your claim, not what you thought about everyone else's comments.

Quote
I've specifically outlined to you the differences in the Rev C board and given you an accurate timescale of when it was produced.

You did, but that's not what I asked.

Quote
You are just a troll as your last couple of posts are mirror images and I'm sure you will again state I've proven nothing to you. You take comments I make as an excuse to change the subject.

See above.

Quote
Yes, I do care how much I pay for ANY product, the less I pay the better and it better be worth the money.

Having lots of fun upgrading your Gamecube so you can run Linux?  Didn't you say in your PPC thread that you have no interest in Linux?

Quote
Where are the hard facts that Nintendo loses money selling consoles? 2 link from established news sites have shown that Ninendo makes money selling consoles.

Congradulations.  You've finally made a breakthrough.

In a previous post, I said, "Note that I never said you were right or wrong".  Instead, I asked you to back up your argument with a source.

It took, what...  several days, dozens of posts, a huge number of sub-topics, and plenty of name-calling for you to deliver?

Whether I like your sources is irrelevant.  All I did was ask for some.

Quote
Koaftder:  Nintendo probably cant make a gamecube for 57 bucks.

We still don't know the actual store cost, so that's a whole new can of worms.

When I was working in a camera store, we made most of our profit on film and accessories.  Our markup on the actual cameras was less than 10%.  I assume game stores operate on similar terms.  They REALLY don't like it if you get the system in one place and buy your games elsewhere.  I bought my memory card before I got the console, and the salesman was shocked that I didn't want a memory card to go with my Cube.

To make him feel better, I told him I bought everything at that store, just on different days.  ;-)

Quote
Looks like a net loss on the device.

My personal belief is that Nintendo makes a gross profit on the hardware, but makes a net loss.  There's a lot of ways to interpret profit, which is why I'm curious about the manufacturing cost and store cost.  Of course, manufacturing cost is something only Nintendo knows.

Quote
Lou:  Also an MSRP is not always ~ twice the actual costs. It varies across different industries.

Correct.  I learned the hard way that selling cameras is a lousy business.

Our markup on film processing, however, was quite remarkable.  I think it was 60%.  Gotta pay for that $100,000 Kodak processor and $10,000-a-year service contract, somehow.  (Hint:  the machines don't come with warantees, they require "service contracts").

Quote
Yes, exactly why I started the "potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP" thread. To move the platform forward as a whole. Instead of support, my idea was picked about for trolling's sake.

That's because your behavior over there is much the same as over here.  Getting you to post proof is like pulling teeth.  Plus, your persistent use of all caps and name-calling gets on everyone's nerves, which is why so few people comment on that thread, even though so many people have read it.

Quote
Quite a read for anyone here who wonders where the hostility toward adolescent and Waccoon comes from.

From you, mostly.  Seriously, who in this thread has made the most hostile comments, Mr. Calls Everyone an I.A.C.

Unlike you, I don't respond to everything I don't like with, "You're just a trolling idiot."

Quote
Koaftder:  AROS seems to strive towards compatability with 3.1. I dont think this is a good direction.

That's my big problem with it, too.  Of course, it crashes like crazy on all of my computers every time I try to read a CD-ROM.  Obviously, there's a long way to go, and it's still not trying to be better than OS3.x at its core.

Quote
ive been thinking of forking aros, but am concerned that it might end up fragmenting things and generally causing problems.

I forked a project called Oekaki Poteto, and now I'm the official developer.  Of course, I'm the only one working on it -- nobody else wanted to fix the bugs and critical security problems that were, like, a year old.  :lol:
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #110 on: October 22, 2005, 05:30:32 PM »
@koaftder

Well AROS's mission statement is to be %100 3.1 compatible with "some" updates/modernization.

@Waccoon

you just keep proving why you are a troll
and yes, I have no interest in Linux, you are correct but if all I had to do to run an alternate OS on the GC was install a $50 mod chip that takes 10 minutes to install, I think the Amiga community has gone through alot more hassel to upgrade their machines and still be nowhere near the power of a Gamecube.  Hence, my installing Linux was an excersise in installing a OS that runs on the Gamecube and I have succeeded and proved a point.

If Linux can be compiled and run on the GC and access a network file system and can read DVD R/RW discs, why can't AROS or an AOS4 version run off it.  Alot of what the GC is critisized for lacking, Revolution has, for instance USB 2.0 ports.

Now AOS4 could be written to run off of the GC but check if it's running on Revolution hardware and take advantage of that.  In my "PPC Amiga..." thread I predicted that a game for the GC would run enhanced on Revolution...if you read cube.ign.com/mail the editor there says this is a possibility with Zelda.  I predicted this in like March.  The Zelda screen shots (newest ones anyway) are in a resolution much higher than 640x480...interesting...

Infact, as Revolution is just an "upgraded" Gamecube, it's possible that it's emulation of GC software may allow for graphical enhancements like the PS1 emulators and even eliminate framerate drops in old GC titles like Madden football.

Revolution could be the G5 Amiga hardware platform everybody wants...and at $199, I'm sold.
One of the spec sheets I've read on the GC says that it can produce a 720p display, however as that resolution is impractial for GC games but great for a desktop.  A VGA cable is available and even makeable if you have a Rev A/B gamecube.  I can't imagine Revolution being less capable as Nintendo has stated that you'll be able to plug it into a computer monitor.

Developers comment on Revolutions's controller:
http://cube.ign.com/articles/660/660408p1.html
 

Offline Turambar

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Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #111 on: October 22, 2005, 08:02:17 PM »
Just thought i'd add a note that say that my current gamecube (previous cube was a panasonic q which i had to sell when times were hard :-()still has both serial ports and the dv out and i purchased it earlier this year (resident evil 4 bundle) so there must still have been a fair few older rev Gamecubes sitting in storage waiting to be sold.
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #112 on: October 22, 2005, 08:19:25 PM »
@lou_dias

Have you installed a mod chip on your gamecube?
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #113 on: October 22, 2005, 11:14:36 PM »
yes, I mean Nintendo will let you trade it in for a fee if you bought a Rev C...

...but pop off the Serial Port 1 Adapter cover and see if the connector is still there...I have a cover for Serial Port 1 on my Rev C but no actual port there when I remove it.  The Serial ports are on either side of the GC, the parralel port is in another corner incase you got confused.

Yes my modchip is installed.  It's the qoob PRO chip with 2MB of flashram that is flashed via USB from my PC.  On the flashram I have the qoob bios 1.3c, an mp3 player and GC-Linux 2.6.1, I can select to load the mp3 player or Linux from the bios's menu or go to the original Gamecube boot.

A ported "Kickstart" would easily fit on there...one that would boot the OS from DVD or network file system...

I ordered the chip and case-MOD bundle (to fit full size DVDs) for a total of $98 ($74.99 + s/h+duty) from www.modchipworld.com that price includes shipping and an import duty took about a week to get it.  The qoob Pro by itself is $49.99
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #114 on: October 23, 2005, 12:00:20 AM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
yes, I mean Nintendo will let you trade it in for a fee if you bought a Rev C...

...but pop off the Serial Port 1 Adapter cover and see if the connector is still there...I have a cover for Serial Port 1 on my Rev C but no actual port there when I remove it.  The Serial ports are on either side of the GC, the parralel port is in another corner incase you got confused.

Yes my modchip is installed.  It's the qoob PRO chip with 2MB of flashram that is flashed via USB from my PC.  On the flashram I have the qoob bios 1.3c, an mp3 player and GC-Linux 2.6.1, I can select to load the mp3 player or Linux from the bios's menu or go to the original Gamecube boot.

A ported "Kickstart" would easily fit on there...one that would boot the OS from DVD or network file system...

I ordered the chip and case-MOD bundle (to fit full size DVDs) for a total of $98 ($74.99 + s/h+duty) from www.modchipworld.com that price includes shipping and an import duty took about a week to get it.  The qoob Pro by itself is $49.99


Cool, where can i get one? What do i have to do to install it? I'll demonstrate L4 kernel running on x86, MACppc and GC .
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #115 on: October 23, 2005, 05:24:11 PM »
Quote

koaftder wrote:
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
I ordered the chip and case-MOD bundle (to fit full size DVDs) for a total of $98 ($74.99 + s/h+duty) from www.modchipworld.com that price includes shipping and an import duty took about a week to get it.  The qoob Pro by itself is $49.99


Cool, where can i get one? What do i have to do to install it? I'll demonstrate L4 kernel running on x86, MACppc and GC .


uh, didn't I just tell you?
installation instructions are on www.qoobchip.com

If you don't get the case mod, you'll have to get 3" rewriteable DVD's or leave the top of the case off and use 5" dvd's.

check:
www.gc-linux.org
www.gcdev.com
http://modthatcube.pxn-os.com/main.htm

for everything you need to know

what's the L4 kernal?
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #116 on: October 27, 2005, 12:24:08 PM »
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12554

Some much for %100 backward compatability.
Sad when the PS2 isn't even backwards compatible with itself, how can you expect the PS3 to be.

As for 360, it just won't have the muscle to "emulate" all the regular XBOX titles.  Part of there "compatibility" comes from downloading recompiled .xbe files from what I hear.  Media will still come from the original XBOX game like the Amiga PPC Quake ports but the executable will come from harddrive as it seems the harddrive is a requirement for backwards compatibility.

As for the GC, since it's escentially an upgraded Gamecube, I'm still holding to my theory that certain future Gamecube titles will be "aware" of the fact that they are running on Revolution hardware and run "enhanced".  Be it higher polygons or using the Rev controller or more on-screen enemies or possibly running at 720p (if Nintendo ever decides to support HD)...
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #117 on: October 27, 2005, 12:38:51 PM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12554

Some much for %100 backward compatability.
Sad when the PS2 isn't even backwards compatible with itself, how can you expect the PS3 to be.

As for 360, it just won't have the muscle to "emulate" all the regular XBOX titles.  Part of there "compatibility" comes from downloading recompiled .xbe files from what I hear.  Media will still come from the original XBOX game like the Amiga PPC Quake ports but the executable will come from harddrive as it seems the harddrive is a requirement for backwards compatibility.

As for the GC, since it's escentially an upgraded Gamecube, I'm still holding to my theory that certain future Gamecube titles will be "aware" of the fact that they are running on Revolution hardware and run "enhanced".  Be it higher polygons or using the Rev controller or more on-screen enemies or possibly running at 720p (if Nintendo ever decides to support HD)...


I dont think most people care about backwards compatability with consoles anyway. Sure it would be a plus, but if i have GC titles, i most likely own a GC to play them on. If i didnt, i probably wouldnt buy GC titles to play on my brand new nintendo console.

And why bother making it backwards compatable, when you can sell your retro versions all over again after they have been ported?

Cmon, you know you;d pay 20 bucks to play mario 3 on your new nintendo.
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #118 on: October 27, 2005, 03:19:15 PM »
No, I play it better with JNES on my PC. :P
Not to mention ZSNES and Project64... Dolwin is coming along...

Then there's ePSXe and WinUAE and MAME, Stella, Gens...

ps,

What's the L4 kernel?
 

Offline Louis Dias

Re: PS3 - X-Box 360 - Nintendo Revolution
« Reply #119 on: October 27, 2005, 05:26:29 PM »
Gee, a 360 exclusive launch title developer slams the Revolution controller: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12577

I think MS is scared that Revolution could dethrone the 360 as the FPS platform.

His comments are rather stupid.  Though I'll agree that there is nothing wrong with the 360 controller...there's also nothing new about it and it (to me) resembles a Dreamcast controller, not Revolution's...

On the PS3, while the controller is ugly as poo, I hear it feels good in your hands.  Again, nothing new there either.