Pffft: Doesn't anybody remember Visicorp?

[legion]

um... Fargo, ND  USA.  Anytime you'd like to discuss, I'm available.

So then, what leads you to think that STB's can suddently succeed, where every other box has failed?

[Hooligan_DCS]

Those STB's are already ordered from Genesi (and even paid?) so it's really not irrelevant if they are sold or not, in this particular case. In future of course situation will/may be different.

This just shows you don't have any idea what you are talking about. I'd like to join you at some bar and discuss about it.. where you live?

[N7VQM]

legion wrote:
Am I the only one who sees this?

So, what are you planning to do with your TV that can't handle Digital TV broadcasts when NTSC goes off the air?  I'm not saying that the STB Genesi is producing can make the conversion but, it's not outside the realm of possibility.  Seems to me all it would take is a bit o' software and a different tuner since it's already going to handle digital satalitte reception.

Would you rather spend $500+ on a new TV or $150-$200, maybe less or nothing if it's from your cable company, on a box that lets your TV "keep up"?  I don't know about your area but, here in KC, Time Warner is pushing digital cable hard.  I suspect they'll drop NTSC programming on the network as soon as the FCC sunsets NTSC transmission.

I know which option I can afford since my EET degree will be worthless once I have it.

[legion]

How exactly is a simple STB going to allow your TV to 'keep up.'
 :-?

[N7VQM]

legion wrote:
How exactly is a simple STB going to allow your TV to 'keep up.'
 :-?

By decoding the broadcast digital video and sound(ATSC), then down-converting(if needed) to NTSC resolution and modulating it so your non-digital TV can display it.  Small-dish satalite (DirectTV, Dish Netowrk, ect.) are already transmitting a digital signal.  The box you get when you sign up for those services is already doing what I just described altho thier encoding scheme is proprietary.  Visit HERE for an overview of an ASTC/NTSC converter referenece design.  Note the presence of a PPC host CPU.

[bbrv]

Good Day!  Yes, we remember VisCorp very well.  You can read about our experience as part of VisCorp here.

The Digital Terrestrial Television requirements of Europe are different than in North America.  In the States there are many competing influences: cable operators, regional Bell Operating Companies, Satellite Television providers and other big media companies like Time Warner and Cox Communications that have diverse media resources.  Setting a standard in this environment is a challange, particularly when local broadcasters were originally given the franchise to carry the DTV signal!

In Europe, there have been successes and failures.  If we just focus on one success, we may see a hint of what the future will bring.  BSkyB in the UK has "given" to their subscribers hundreds of thousands of STBs to receiver a DTV signal (at this point we will not differentiate between satellite and terrestrial).  Their model works: sports and movies.  In the meanwhile, Free-to-View, in the UK is working too.  BSkyB after enormous expenditure will have huge operating profits this year.  Is the picture clearer?

Now, do something inexpensive with a 403 PPC and a DTV tuner with MorphOS (in this case) and you could have something quite special that can handle anything as well as everything retailing for 400-500 Euros at less that 25% of the cost.  Sounds like something another BSkyB-like company might take a risk with?  Yes, you bet!

Everything we learned before collectively (VisCorp, PhaseV, bplan, Thendic, etc.) is coming to play today in Genesi for a very large company that wants to do *exactly* that.

More later...stay tuned!  ;-)

Best regards,

Raquel and Bill  :-)
Genesi

[asian1]

Hi
Their name was Viscorp (Visual Information Service Corporation)  NOT Visicorp. They plan to establish Amiga STB consortium but failed.

STB

News on Viscorp

I still don't know the market for expensive STB based on G3 / G4.

The best selling STB are low end models (less than US$ 100) based on X86 (Geode, Rise, IDT), or ARM chips.  The low end PowerPC (40X) is more suitable for STB than high end PowerPC.

Even low end or mid class CPU (ie VIA 700 MHz) can be used for digital VCR, Movie on Demand, Interactive TV etc.

I don't know how Plexuscom can re-sell the product in Asia. My best guess is for expensive Suite Rooms in 5 star Hotels. The market for expensive STB is limited.

>NTSC
FCC plan to discontinue Analog Transmission in US starting 2006. In 2006 all TV station must start Digital Transmission.

In Europe they will use DVB-T (Terrestrial), not Cable.

Most European Cable / Telecommunication companies had gone bankrupt / in poor financial situation. (ie DT, Granada, KPN, Vivendi etc).

[amigacooke]

"In Europe, there have been successes and failures. If we just focus on one success, we may see a hint of what the future will bring. BSkyB in the UK has "given" to their subscribers hundreds of thousands of STBs to receiver a DTV signal (at this point we will not differentiate between satellite and terrestrial). Their model works: sports and movies. In the meanwhile, Free-to-View, in the UK is working too. BSkyB after enormous expenditure will have huge operating profits this year. Is the picture clearer?" quoted  from bbrv.

This summary as stated is correct, but does need qualification. BSkyB's sucess has been built on programme content, not on method of delivery.  As Bill says it has been built on a huge investment, largely to gain exclusive coverage of sports, the jewel in the crown being English Premier football.  The point here is that other companies moving into this market may find it difficult to compete in the UK without comperable incentives to viewers.

The passing reference to Free-to-View is a bit misleading. This service started life as OnDigital which then became ITV Digital. This service collapsed with large debts, due to trying to emulate BSkyB with an over costly football deal with the English Football league. It was rescued by a combination of BSkyB (remember them) and the BBC and is therefore supported (unfairly some might say) by the licence fee.

In the UK the set-top boom has been often reported, but never really happened (as yet).

[lempkee]

there is heaps of STB's in norway , everything from Celeron's to arm's ... phillips made a few , samsung made a few , lG made some also.... and guess what they doesnt sell, well not good anyway as if you ask anyone they will say... a wHAT ? .
an STB always sounded great , but i think it will need a very big HYPE to actually get well known, so how to start a hype+??? , as an STB is for people outside the AMIGA market....

[Step]

UPC provides its customers with an Motorola DVi5000 model with built in ethernet, USB and firewire. A very basic box, probably low cost.
It has email, on-demand and games capabilities, altough not yet implemented here in Sweden.

It is probably not a bad deal for Motorola, UPC is a big company and have probably distributed this box to a large amount of their customers.

[legion]

I see.  So basically the STB's are not so much internet portals as they are simply a content delivery device for broadcast.  This makes more sense.

Still, as quoted above (or below, if your signed in) the whole STB boom never seems to happen. Wouldn't it make more sense, BBRV, if your looking for a cash cow, to focus on the areas that Amiga can really shine? Superior multimedia on low-powered equipment is one of the reasons that make Amiga so special.  I think Merlancia was on to something with their Kiosk idea, but unfortunately Ryan doesn't have the funds/business sense to make it work.  Everywhere you go, you see information Kiosks.  

AInc, of course, is trying to do the same thing Genesi is, but in a different market.  I think, however, that they are trying to project more potential onto the cell phone market than what is actually there.  How many of you play games on your cell phone?  I know I don't.  I use it to call people.  If they were smart, they would start developing the functionality of PalmOS into a program that is purchasable and downloadable into existing phones.  I would gladly pay $40 for extra functionality in my cellphone, as opposed to over $100 for a palm pilot and have to carry around an additional device.  To me, this seems very real, useful, profitable and simple to accomplish.

In the same regard, and how it applies to Genesi: How many people do anything more with their TV than actually watch tv?  Most households have computers for Internet, because they are far more suited to that application.  For specialized content, perhaps a STB is useful, but I seriously doubt its going to be a cash cow for your IP.  Simply delivering content at low, low prices is not going to be very profitable, and I think if you sat down and thought about it you'd realize that.  

No, Genesi and Ainc, where you will shine will be in the market of delivering *additional* content and functionality that is useful.  Look at Tivo's business model.  With your technology, you could provide this fucntionality PLUS games PLUS online gaming PLUS palm style organization for day to day activities PLUS amiga's capacity for strong multimedia delivery.

Perhaps its time to start innovating again.  After all, isn't that the reason why we're all still here?

 :-o

[downix]

I still don't know the market for expensive STB based on G3 / G4.

Neither does Genesi, as they are using the PowerPC 403 CPU, not the G3 or G4.  Similar to that in a TiVo.

[bbrv]

Hi amigacooke, thanks for the discussion.  The demise of ITV in the UK certainly contributed to the success of BSkyB.  ITV paid too much for the football rights and their smart card system was hacked.  The business model was bloated from the start and then easily eroded creating a no-win situation -- except for the competition.  Speaking of which there is a good article about Murdoch here.  BSkyB had fertile ground to make their approach and excellent execution (check out those year end profits ;-)  ).  BTW, This article should also be read by others who may be underestimating this DTV STB market at the price point we are delivering hardware to it (contrast that for example with the super STB from Pace at 350 £!).

Just to carry this discussion a bit farther, we are not targeting the UK.  Our customer is based in continental Europe and has a pricing strategy that tells us they understand the market and their customers.  We will not be posting that information. :-)  Nevertheless, to continue with an example from BSkyB (please correct if necessary) -- adult channels cost a whopping £5 per night, while sports are on different channels for which you must pay separately (Sky sports 1, 2 and 3).  On the smart cards side, BSkyB collects data via a modem (very big brother we think) and apparently logs all web pages you visit and records all outgoing emails and stores them in a secret file which is *very* well hidden. As far as we can tell, the BSkyB boxes in the UK are completely non-standard.  They use WAP which may sound off the wall given it's designed for mobile phones but being designed for low end systems with low bandwidth makes it perfect for STBs.  There's a lot of technology available now that supports WAP development.  We actually will have a WAP stack/Browser ready.

Remember, we will not integrate the uplink initially to reduce cost (we will have a WAP portal for people to use mobile phones as an unlink though and a handy little connector to support that process).  We have a phased modular strategy that adds functionality akin to the base station of a radio/remote phone designed normally for home use.  The receiver chip for the radio signal will have been already introduced in the STB (as is found in the home handset associated with the base station that anchors the system in the home with power and telephone line connection -- incidentally overcoming the no telephone connection near the TV problem).  On the smart card side, we will use them to unscramble parts of the signal already there.  This can be done on a subscriber or pre-paid basis (for anonymity or one game at a time).  The signal itself can *also* be data driven to individually addressable STBs.  Here smart cards can be further used as recording devices.  In our case viewing data can be exchanged for movie credits...;-)  Of course, this flexibility can be promotion/advertising oriented too... :-)

Finally, legion, take at look at the Genesi website (please forgive the missing UK flag reference -- just noticed that problem with our "English" reference :-D ).  You will find plenty of innovation there hidden behind those products.  We have hinted at many things before and if you take a further look you can see a strategy evident.

We are overwhelmed this week by events that have nothing to do with Genesi.  This will probably be the only post until next week.  Nevertheless, we tried to be as informative as possible because we truly appreciate the discussion.

Best regards,

Raquel and Bill  :-)
Genesi

Will it also be able to do Tivo like things ?

[ikir]

Viscorp..... :-x