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Author Topic: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?  (Read 4037 times)

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Offline McNorrisTopic starter

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The Apple website doesn't have it. The rumour site said it was coming  10 or so days ago.

The Apple dealer around the corner has thhem under the counter, behind the glass.

Am I missing something here? or do ou think the dealer put them out by mistake?

Sorry I know it is not "Amiga," but Apple with a two-button mouse is almost as odd as Amiga makeing a real comeback. (have faith then).
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2005, 12:40:14 AM »
About frickin' time!

Only apple could make a dual G5 based system *before* a dual button based mouse :lol:

I never *ever* understood the one button mouse thing. The fact you have to control click anything to get a context sensetive menu is proof that a 2 button mouse is vastly more useful than a one button mouse. Just right click on it instead and keep your other hand free for stroking your chin in bewilderment at the MacOS error code the operation you just carried out resulted in :-D
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Offline Waccoon

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2005, 05:01:54 AM »
You don't need a second mouse button!  That's what the options key is for!

And Mac people say Microsoft's click-drag paradigm is difficult.  Pshaw.  :-)

Makes me wonder when they'll finally add a friggin' scrollwheel.  My dad's Logitech has seven buttons, plus a scrollwheel and scroll-click -- all fully remappable via DirectInput.  My keyboard has 18 media buttons above the function keys, also fully remappable.  Now that's nice.
 

Offline GreggBz

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2005, 07:25:09 AM »
Quote from engadget.com
"We figured Jobs would go to his grave buried in some sort of gigantic one-button coffin, but according to the report, Apple is going to reverse literally decades of stubborness with a two-button mouse that will probably retail for around $69."

LOL...
one-button coffin..  :lol:
 

Offline Martin_Lee

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2005, 09:34:55 AM »
Ive been using a 3 button mouse on my mac for years!
 

Offline Framiga

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2005, 12:42:42 PM »
sorry but . . .am i fool (probably) or i've already seen IMac with 2 mouse buttons as default?!?

 

Offline samanosuke

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2005, 01:52:05 PM »
I think that the reason that Apple has stuck to one button mice for so long is because of simplicity. A single button mouse can be used by both left and right handed people, eliminating bias. The problem is now that even left handed people are crying out for more buttons. I guess the sight of the obligatory Logitech plugged into every Mac was too much for Jobs to bear so he caved in. I for one have been so much happier since getting rid of my single buttoned 'pro' mouse for my iMac.
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Offline Floid

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2005, 03:05:26 PM »
Quote

samanosuke wrote:
I think that the reason that Apple has stuck to one button mice for so long is because of simplicity. A single button mouse can be used by both left and right handed people, eliminating bias. [...]


Okay, there are multiple schools of thought on this -- from the designers themselves.  To oversimplify, on the one hand (whee, puns), more buttons are 'good,' in line with that misattributed Einstein quote about not oversimplifying.

On the other hand, the Mac's original target market was the absolutely clueless, and a design goal was for the interface to be rapidly adopted by those exact types -- people with no prior experience with computers.  For those, another button would've added a whole new level of complexity in the critical learning phase.  We've all sat down with newbies who couldn't keep track of their right from their left -- those guys did too, in testing, and decided the tradeoff made sense; for the Mac's audience, with the Mac's metaphors, stuff should either have a visibly documented representation on the screen.  If you couldn't pull it off that way, you probably weren't doing the right thing for the sort of people who'd buy a Mac.

The Amiga got a pretty decent split on the issue; you didn't gain a whole lot from the second button, since it was dedicated to one task, but it dodged the Apple lawsuits, improved ergonomy (one less click motion, potentially, although we all know there's that slightly greater risk of release error), and wasn't very 'modal,' so it didn't really introduce any more complexity.  What the Mac guys were actually fearing, and recoiling against after they timed it in practice, were, in fact, some pretty context-menu-like things, and PARC systems that decided you needed three buttons for the likes of "Select," "Menu," and "Meta" -- while being fairly strict about the sequence required (first "select" the icon, then "menu" what to do with it, then use one specific button to select the menu option -- and to copy a file, repeat the sequence again for an early version of the cut/paste technique that re-emerged in Windows).

Today, we're doing a whole heck of a lot of "semantic" stuff with computers, and the idea of pulling up "context" is itself a powerful idea... While nobody can figure out how to use the OS X Dock, which, if it weren't so weird and confusing to everyone, might actually be a way to preserve the click-and-drag gesture that Apple just might've been inventors of (you'd drag your selection to a 'verb' present on the dock, but those 'verbs' would have to be there, and the most common actions for web users -- save this as a link, save this as a file -- would end up being implied by the drag operation to the holding area, probably guaranteeing the 'wrong' behavior 50% of the time).

I'm not sure what the moral of this is, but it logically signals a further 'death' of the system as one guaranteed to be straightforward for people who can't figure out a two-button mouse (though, as anyone who's had to support Mac users knows, that straightforwardness was pretty much dead a year or three after launch).  That's fine for Apple's business, people who can't figure that out are now a minority, and will probably suck it up and learn like Windows users did, but it feels like Jobs is playing games with Raskin's observation on familiarity -- instead of actually doing research and testing and interaction science, Apple will cough up whatever's cool, and people will eventually develop familiarity with whatever it is once they've bought in on the reputation of the original Mac.*  Nothing has to meet Jobs' own standards of 'insane greatness' anymore, it just has to avoid too many of the basic interaction pitfalls that would make it an unmitigated disaster (and even then, if the box is nice, and it conveys slightly more status than everyone else's pink flamingo, people will ignore those).

(Doing the Newton/Mac split was smart in retrospect, but we know how that went... Had they been able to make one brand 'the absurdly simple one' and one brand 'the slightly more complex one' instead of splitting across device categories, there might've been a hope left for usability and consistency... But that would've required admitting that anything could possibly be complex.  One upshot of the current situation is that they're now acknowledging -- at least through design philosophy -- the way their ideas steer the commodity market, and the commodity market can be pretty good at retaining simplicity once a product category gets entrenched... The stupid-but-useful iPod Shuffle idea stands a good chance of lasting long past the point Apple drops it, now that they've blown the marketing dollars to drum the idea into every otherwise-unaware consumer's head.)

*And of course, this now drives the 'cult,' because if you'd only been following Apple (or even moreso, NeXT) for the past decade or two, things might make sense... and the more people who can have relatively specialized, marketable knowledge (vs. skills that can be acquired by anyone with five minutes of noodling), the more money they can rake in and feed back to Apple through purchases.

I have no idea why I wrote all this, now.  Blame coffee, but the main point is that there really was a continuum of thought on "How hard are computers going to have to be to use?" -- well, that's vague, so specifically, how much time must be spent with the manual before a particular degree of proficiency is gained -- and I'm still amazed and amused at how this one goofy machine from Commodore hit on most of the accepted compromises first, just by doing what was obvious to the designers.  (Hmm, should that be a surprise?  People tend to do what seems obvious. :-))
 

Offline Vincent

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2005, 03:39:10 PM »
Blimmin' heck Floid, that's a bit much for a peaceful Sunday afternoon :-P

Interesting though :-D
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Offline AltRN8

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2005, 05:09:07 PM »
People are always attacking Apple for the lack of a two button mouse. There are two reasons for a single button mouse that make me think they weren't all that bad an idea.

The first one I heard not to long ago possibly from a slashdot link maybe somewhere else. Its a design constraint to prevent an insane number of context menus on a right mouse click. Ever notice why lots of applications on the mac have very similar functionality in terms of where to click and what keyboard shortcuts do what? I admit I use a multi-button mouse on my work machines but when I right click there is always just a few very useful things as opposed to my windows box where a right click brings up a universe of choices!

Now in my mind it seems a bit extreme to limit programmers through hardware restrictions (basically fewer two button mice equals design for the bigger audience).

The second reason I have I never bought until I had children. I always thought it was silly to give kids a one button mouse. They are going to need to learn how to use two buttons eventually right! Well when I sit down with my 3 1/2 year old to play on some educational website he can do everything by himself on my mac with a one button mouse. On my pc with the 4 button + wheel mouse he keeps hitting the wrong one. He is a lot happier on the mac.

I expect the two button mouse from apple to be "unique" in some way. Probably ambidexterous with some other "never been done" feature. So mostly style over subtance with something weird that will make people go hmmm. That's their market now though, I would expect nothing less.

To be honest I think the other reason they are finally doing this is that their Pro App line of software really does need multiple mice buttons. Its just too annoying to use FinalCut Pro with one mouse buton. They looked awfully silly selling computers to folks who then have to go out and buy another mouse to use the software they bought to use it. I wouldn't be surprised to see the mouse bundled with FC Pro pro or the production studio if its not made a selectable option on the Apple Store.

The amazing part is they are going to charge $60 for a two button mouse and people will buy it.



 

Offline McNorrisTopic starter

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2005, 01:32:10 AM »
"but it feels like Jobs is playing games with Raskin's observation on familiarity "

Raskin actually said that was his/their biggest goof with the Macintosh. He is quoted has saying "windows was right" on the subject of two-button mice.

I agree with AltRN8 on kids and two-button mice, but I have used two-button mice on Macs since I got back into computer in 1998. I was shocked to find out that Windows did the same thing. :) (Hey, when commodore bit it, I started spending all my time with music).

I do wish it was an option with macs. I was just shocked to see it. I thought it wasn't to be for a little while yet. I looks pretty cool... Darker. :-o

"I expect the two button mouse from apple to be "unique" in some way. Probably ambidexterous with some other "never been done" feature. So mostly style over subtance with something weird that will make people go hmmm. That's their market now though, I would expect nothing less."

I think it's two-button, scroll/click, straight up. (but it might be wireless) It's the same shape as the one-button job, but Darker instead of the bright (white) one-button mice.

A mouse with one-button was great for System 6, but we live in a different world now. A world without Amiga. :-(
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Offline FastRobPlus

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2005, 01:49:31 AM »
Quote

McNorris wrote:

A mouse with one-button was great for System 6, but we live in a different world now. A world without Amiga. :-(


Right! I use System 6.0.3!
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2005, 04:10:19 AM »
Quote
That's fine for Apple's business, people who can't figure that out are now a minority, and will probably suck it up and learn like Windows users did, but it feels like Jobs is playing games with Raskin's observation on familiarity -- instead of actually doing research and testing and interaction science, Apple will cough up whatever's cool, and people will eventually develop familiarity with whatever it is once they've bought in on the reputation of the original Mac.

Usability has long been dead on the Mac platform.  They touted ease of use, then released a "hockey puck" for the iMac, which has to have been the worst mouse design ever.  I say that from personal experience as well as the mountains of complaints from the Mac community.  Of couse, Apple was so proud of themselves, they made the "puck" standard on their high-end tower systems, too.

Making interfaces natural is important, but everyone must keep in mind that the computer is still a tool, and you must learn the basics of the tool to use it properly.  I don't think my ex-boss could've been any easier to tutor on a Mac than a Windows machine.  Intentionally putting restrictions on a tool may force people not to make it overcomplicated, but it usually just ends up making it less useful.

Now, Apple, where's the damned scroll wheel?!
 

Offline Martin_Lee

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2005, 03:37:50 PM »
Raskin (RIP) was a great man,

As someone said, the one button mouse was a good idea, but not really anymore,
I can imagine using a Mac mouse with my Mac, Ive got a 3 button scroll logitech instead.

-Who wants to ctrl click everything??? no-one!

-Who wants a scroll wheel??? everyone!

-Who wants that Mac mouse to stop getting its damn wire caught under itself??? ME and many others!

But i seriously doubt that Apple will bring out a two button mouse but hey maybe if they wanna keep up their popularity with the common user they will.
 

Offline Seehund

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Re: Why does my Apple Dealer already have Apple's two-button mouse?
« Reply #14 on: March 30, 2005, 04:19:17 PM »
Quote

McNorris wrote:

Sorry I know it is not "Amiga," ...


Sure it is. Just put this sticker on it. ;)

Oh, if Apple only would go ahead and "innovate" again and make a Power/iBook with more than one trackpad button!
[color=0000FF]Maybe it\\\'s still possible to [/color]save AmigaOS [color=0000FF][/size][/color]  :rtfm:......