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Offline GeneraleTopic starter

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CF card as hard drive?
« on: February 13, 2005, 02:02:43 AM »
yeah, me again.

I noticed on ebay last night a flood of IDE to CF adaptors.

At the time I was thinking "Ooh, that would be nice for my PC" even though I have a USB reader...Then it hit me.
Something like that would be perfect for a small storage solution for an Amiga where internal space is at a premium. Especially if the person is willing to put a small slot in their case so they can exchange drives  :-)

Only thing is, I have no idea if they require drivers, because the connection appears to be pretty much straight-through.

Any thoughts?
Anyone tried it or know if it will/won't work?
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Offline adonay

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2005, 02:20:42 AM »
This has been done alot recently have seen some nice mods in amiga 600s very nice silent too thinking of doing something like this in my 1200 ..and for drivers i think they check out as scsi in idefix not shure do havent tried..



adonay :-D
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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2005, 02:22:27 AM »
Quote

Generale wrote:
yeah, me again.

I noticed on ebay last night a flood of IDE to CF adaptors.

At the time I was thinking "Ooh, that would be nice for my PC" even though I have a USB reader...Then it hit me.
Something like that would be perfect for a small storage solution for an Amiga where internal space is at a premium. Especially if the person is willing to put a small slot in their case so they can exchange drives  :-)

Only thing is, I have no idea if they require drivers, because the connection appears to be pretty much straight-through.

Any thoughts?
Anyone tried it or know if it will/won't work?


I use one on my 1200 and on my Pegasos without any problems at all.

Be careful of the maxium write cycle of CF cards though. The one in my Peg is used as a boot drive and nothing else, but the one in my 1200 gets written to frequently so it'll die a lot sooner.
 

Offline GeneraleTopic starter

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2005, 02:32:08 AM »
Cool. Thanks for the replies.

I have horrible luck with hard drives. I was considering it myself. It looks to be a nice cheap alternative. Mostly because I don't have a massive amount of data to store anyway. Just DP and some utils really.
A500 (salvo): 1Mb RAM (512k chip, 512k SlowFast)
1x880k Floppy Disk, 1xIBM 540Mb 3.5\\"HDD KS1.3, WB1.3
1084S monitor. AT Keyboard!
A500 (Whitey): 512k RAM, 1x880k Floppy Disk, KS1.2, WB1.3
 

Offline umisef

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2005, 02:43:33 AM »
Part of the CF specification requires each CF card to implement an IDE interface. So no, there won't be any problems, because to the computer, the CF card looks just like an IDE disk.

Of course, most CF cards only implement PIO modes (at least these days, you usually get some of the higher PIO modes). And yes, you only get a limited number of write cycles --- but that limited number is reasonably high these days (some manufacturers guarantee up to 100,000 cycles).
 

Offline Floid

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2005, 02:58:03 AM »
Quote

Generale wrote:

Especially if the person is willing to put a small slot in their case so they can exchange drives  :-)


Remember that, depending on the design of the adapter, hotplug should be considered dangerous.
 
Quote
Only thing is, I have no idea if they require drivers, because the connection appears to be pretty much straight-through.


The types of adapters likely to allow hotplug are likely to require some sort of driver support.  (Note that I'm talking about ones that hang off the IDE bus; USB and so forth are generally fine, or at least marginally more insulated from frying the system.)  The 'pretty much straight-through' kind will be fine, but you may wish to refrain from hotplugging those.

Quote
Any thoughts?


If write cycles are a concern, see if you can scrounge a Microdrive instead of a truly solid-state card.  Access speeds may be even worse, though.
 

Offline MaDDuck

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2005, 06:05:28 AM »
Given the fragile, unbuffered nature of the in-built IDE's on 600/1200, it might be a good idea not to even concider a hot swap option at all!
I've got an 800MB flash drive with an IDE plug on it and it boots my A4000 in about 3 seconds and no drivers are needed. Check on Ebay, they show up there all of the time.
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Offline Crusher

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2005, 10:26:31 AM »
@MaDDuck, what card and reader do you have? :)
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Offline Floid

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2005, 01:00:39 PM »
Quote

MaDDuck wrote:
Given the fragile, unbuffered nature of the in-built IDE's on 600/1200, it might be a good idea not to even concider a hot swap option at all!


Well, AFAIK, this goes equally for all controllers not specifically built for CF (which are then probably driving the card in 'native CF mode,' however that works).  There are, however, weird IDE<->CF bridges with some smarts to them, that take care of the buffering and so on, but I have no idea how standard they are, what device class they intend to be, etc... only that they aren't likely to allow mounting at all until someone specifically crafts support, considering even Linux and the BSDs have or at least have-had trouble with them.

I mentioned this 'risk' a long time ago, and I think someone may've called me on it or otherwise elaborated, but basically, if it looks pretty 'straight through,' it's likely to work, and if it has a big ASIC present and comes bundled with a Windows driver CD, caveat emptor.
 

Offline GeneraleTopic starter

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2005, 01:13:55 PM »
heh. I didn't even contemplate hot-swapping to be honest.
I'm the sort of person that can swap hard drives in a PC up to a few times a day. And tend to rearrange hardware on average weekly.

That reminds me...how many of you out there have hotswapped ISA cards in old PCs? I discovered years ago I'm not the only one. Talk about tolerant hardware. Anyhow, that's way off topic.

As for microdrives. If I got hold of one of them it'd go straight into a Fujitsu Stylistic 500 I have. Odd machines, but strangely cool.
A500 (salvo): 1Mb RAM (512k chip, 512k SlowFast)
1x880k Floppy Disk, 1xIBM 540Mb 3.5\\"HDD KS1.3, WB1.3
1084S monitor. AT Keyboard!
A500 (Whitey): 512k RAM, 1x880k Floppy Disk, KS1.2, WB1.3
 

Offline chiark

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2005, 08:37:20 AM »
Just a thought about this "limited write cycle" stuff on CF cards, or indeed any flash memory.

I have been "reliably" informed that the majority of cards are sensible in their dealing with bad blocks, and dynamically map bad blocks/exhausted blocks out of the available space, and use another sector.

I haven't tested this :-) , but a quick google suggests there's plenty of technologies punting this sort of behaviour.

Personally, I'd use a microdrive for this sort of thing.  The 2.2gb microdrive lookalike from Magicstor is always cheap.

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Offline Floid

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2005, 11:37:12 AM »
Quote

Generale wrote:

As for microdrives. If I got hold of one of them it'd go straight into a Fujitsu Stylistic 500 I have. Odd machines, but strangely cool.


That takes CF?  I gather the old style of PCMCIA (Type III?) hard drive was used on those designs... though I suppose a flatter solution might buy you a slot, depending how they have it arranged.  (If you really like those, they took them way past the 486 era, and may have only just renamed the brand as part of the TabletPC mess, I've lost track.)

---

As to the remapping, I'd assume that's snuck in, too (especially as the broader market is forced to use FAT on all these), but even in the best case, how many spares are you guaranteed?  The MTBF is probably more than fine for an Amiga -- it certainly works for palmtop users -- but you probably wouldn't want to put something like a swapfile on one.

Edit:  Okay, specifically, I'm digging at "dynamically map bad blocks/exhausted blocks out of the available space, and use another sector," just to make sure everyone knows what this means.  Drives aren't filesystem-aware, and most filesystems aren't drive-aware to this extent (whether they should be is another question), so the on-disk logic can remap blocks, but can't shrink the 'available space' of the volume -- at least without, pardon the pun, fscking up the assumptions made when partition tables were written and filesystems formatted.  After that limited number of spares behind the curtain are used up, it's time for the card or drive to hit the bin.  

It would be kind of cool if they'd just shrink the capacity of the drive on you when you run out of spares and let you reformat (perhaps reserving another row's worth of spares each time, until the capacity of the card's down to 0), but there's also kind of no way they can do that without risking access to all your data at the moment, so a) I'm almost completely certain they don't do that, and b) they won't be able to unless 'a miracle occurs' at the host level.  It's a lot easier to make the host do it in software -- no coherency concerns, no need for the host to take this 'whoops, we just changed the size of the volume on you' exception at *any* time -- so I gather 'soft' mechanisms and more flexible filesystems are becoming the popular approach for dealing with unreliable media.  The other alternative would be to have all sorts of 'mailbox' logic until your humble USB stick becomes its own fileserver, but that's a lot of firmware for what's supposed to be a 'disposable' storage device... still, there are compromises to be made, if I understand how CD and DVD packet-writing actually works at that low level.  ('Mailboxing' files gets ridiculous, but 'mailboxing' blocks/sectors/packets just acknowledges what the disks are doing already, and there's a good excuse to let them carry on, what with latency and buffer-lifetime issues if each remap has to be handled 1980s-style by the host.)

My bet is that even, say, Mt. Rainier isn't quite as smart as I wish it is, but after doing all this thinking in public, I'm going to have to look into it now.
 

Offline Chunder

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2005, 11:45:02 AM »
@chiark (and others!)

I've got one of the 2.2GB MagicStor microdrives in my A600, using a standard CF-IDE adapter. Works a charm - don't have any problems with it being too slow (probably because the machine isn't much of a speed daemon, and thus the IDE isn't the bottleneck... :-) )

If anyone wants to check out what I've done, there's some pictures here: http://www.pimpmyamiga.org.uk
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Offline chiark

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2005, 12:08:05 PM »
Quote
probably wouldn't want to put something like a swapfile on one


Agreed :-)

Just making the point that it's probably not a *huge* concern for the next fair few years if you do use a decent  CF card :)

I love that A600 :-) - well pimped ;-)
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Offline DeQuevedo

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Re: CF card as hard drive?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2005, 03:40:57 PM »
I have an IDE2CF adapter, but I cant initialize de CF under Hdtoolbox. Eror 7 it says I think
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