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Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #614 from previous page: February 01, 2006, 01:00:05 PM »
Yes, I know most OS's are written in C and that means C is in the business world - but it's not.  The OS is in the business world and is not maintained by each individual customer.  The OS is an end product.  C/C++ is just not the dominant language in the IT world when companies need quick applications or reports.

Well, the fact that I don't like C is why I'm waiting for someone else to get an OS running on the GC vs. me doing it myself.

I realize games development is done in C/C++ but I'm not games developer and neither are most of you.

@Waccoon
I wasn't trying to look cool by using  b+=1 vs. b=b+1, just pointing out there's less chance of a logic error when the code is split up with one function per line.  It's easier to debug.

@koftldr
Basic has the ':' incase I want to put 2 commands on one like.  I still don't want to put 2 commands on one like.  That's the point.  C was made to be small.
then there's:
{
 {
  {
}
}
}

I mean it's just a fugly language that makes for poor readability and prone to bad indexing, illegal referencing and logic errors.

That's why C/C++ sucks.
I never said it isn't capable of doing anything.  Just that degugging it and maintaining it is harder - that's the disadvantage.  Compilers will compile ideally.  The language it irrelevant, so it might as well be easy to read and use
 

Offline _ThEcRoW

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #615 on: February 01, 2006, 02:57:25 PM »
What has this to do with the GC??????.
Anyway c is a good programming language, and if it sometimes can get complex it's because it's inherent power.

 
Amiga 1200 desktop. Apollo 030/50 Mhz 8mb ram + ClassicWB + Wb 3.1
Amiga 500 + ACA500Plus + 16gb CF | ECS Power!!!
C64 DTV + Keyboard mod. Waiting for a 1541 disk ve...
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Offline koaftder

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #616 on: February 01, 2006, 09:46:57 PM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
Yes, I know most OS's are written in C and that means C is in the business world - but it's not.  The OS is in the business world and is not maintained by each individual customer.  The OS is an end product.  C/C++ is just not the dominant language in the IT world when companies need quick applications or reports.

Well, the fact that I don't like C is why I'm waiting for someone else to get an OS running on the GC vs. me doing it myself.

I realize games development is done in C/C++ but I'm not games developer and neither are most of you.

@Waccoon
I wasn't trying to look cool by using  b+=1 vs. b=b+1, just pointing out there's less chance of a logic error when the code is split up with one function per line.  It's easier to debug.

@koftldr
Basic has the ':' incase I want to put 2 commands on one like.  I still don't want to put 2 commands on one like.  That's the point.  C was made to be small.
then there's:
{
 {
  {
}
}
}

I mean it's just a fugly language that makes for poor readability and prone to bad indexing, illegal referencing and logic errors.

That's why C/C++ sucks.
I never said it isn't capable of doing anything.  Just that degugging it and maintaining it is harder - that's the disadvantage.  Compilers will compile ideally.  The language it irrelevant, so it might as well be easy to read and use


cmon, your not helping out on the porting because your not up to the task. Just be honest about it. Maybe you just dont have the time, good god, dont blame the language it's written in.

yes, your {{{}}} example is cute. Its a worthless example though, as nobody would just pile up a bunch of empty braces like that.

Again, all languages allow people to write absurd programs. That doesnt make the language bad.

Since apparantly you are the resident language expert, what language do you purpose we all code in?
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #617 on: February 01, 2006, 10:33:11 PM »
as for the brackets, you can insert your own code.

Let's look at other languages like Vb for instance:

For loops are enclosed within the For and Next statements
DO ... LOOP
If ... THEN
...
ELSEIF
...
ELSE
...
END IF

Instead we get stiff like

for(i=0;i<10;++i)
{
 If mod(i,2) = 0 {
  printf("even\n")}
else {
  printf("odd like koaftder()\n")
}
}  /* let me count...did I use enough closing brackets? */

I can encase it in more commands and finally a function if you'd like so that I can throw more brackets in there...
...
instead of

Dim i as short

For i = 0 to 9
If Mod(i, 2) = 0 Then
  console.out "Even"
ELSE
  console.out "why must you annoy me koaftder?"
END IF
NEXT i

All I'm saying it's ugly lends itself to aggrivation.  They make spell checkers and grammar checkers for word processors which are more complex than less than 100 commands a compiler has to translate.

Hey, if you think c++ is pretty...
...well fat chicks need love too.
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #618 on: February 01, 2006, 10:53:07 PM »
@lou_dias

let me fix that for you:

Code: [Select]

int i;
for( i=0; i<10; ++i ) {
   if ( mod(i,2) == 0 ) {
      printf ( &quot;even\n&quot; ) ;
   } else {
      printf ( &quot;odd like koaftder()\n&quot; ) ;
   }
}


I dont think the above is hard to read... Using enough braces is not an issue. When you write in a '{' you immedately write in the trailing '}' before you fill it in. A nice IDE makes all this even easier. Most will highlight the associated bracket when you move the cursor over it. Lines with syntactical problems are highlighted, etc. Most can autoindent and all that good stuff you are used to in visual studio.

If you think it's ugly, thats your personal oppinion, it has no bearing on whether or not the language sucks.

And you still didnt answer my question, since you think c sucks, what is your ideal language?
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #619 on: February 02, 2006, 12:07:33 AM »
VB.NET
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #620 on: February 02, 2006, 12:52:36 AM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
VB.NET



 :lol:

anyway, vb.net is pretty cool, i use it from time to time, nice and convinent. A top notch rad tool. Cant use it for everything though. Sometimes it's the right tool for the job, other times c is the right tool. Different strenghts, different weakness.
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #621 on: February 02, 2006, 04:22:57 AM »
It's basic.  It's object-oriented.  It's straight-forward.

It's great!

I still miss control arrays from 6.0 though...
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #622 on: February 02, 2006, 09:24:02 AM »
Quote
Lou:  @Waccoon
I wasn't trying to look cool by using b+=1 vs. b=b+1, just pointing out there's less chance of a logic error when the code is split up with one function per line. It's easier to debug.

Uh, you were actually comparing "+=" to "++".

C is perfectly capable of using "+=", which means your example effectively is C code.  A better example would be nice.

Quote
Lou:  I mean it's just a fugly language that makes for poor readability and prone to bad indexing, illegal referencing and logic errors.

Everyone knows these problems don't exist in non-C lanugage, of course.

As with most topics in this thread, you're trying too hard to defend or bash one particular way of doing things.  You don't keep your options open, or even care to know about them.

Quote
Koaftder:  yes, your {{{}}} example is cute

Indeed.  Good programmers don't nest lots of loops.  C also doesn't require code to be broken into blocks in most cases.  Brackets are designed to improve readability, if used wisely.

Thus, the endless debate about whether to use open brackets at the end of a line or on a new line by itself.  Personally, I prefer the end-of-line structure, but C doesn't force anyone to do that.  That's what's nice about the structure of C code.  For the most part, it doesn't dictate form, like many BASICs do.

Quote
Lou:  /* let me count...did I use enough closing brackets? */

*cough*  Try indenting, or at least use the "[ code]" tag when you want to show examples in a forum.

If you don't indent when using "THEN", "ELSE", and "END IF", does that improve readability?

Quote
Lou:
If ... THEN

I find keywords to be much harder to read than brackets, capitalized or not.  But, that's just me.

Quote
Lou:  Dim i as short

This is easier to read than "int i=0;"?
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #623 on: February 02, 2006, 12:26:56 PM »
@waccoon

it comes down to reading.
I can read basic to myself and it's closer to the english language where as C is not.

for instance:  Dim I as short
I read it as "dimension I as type short"

int i=0; while functionally the same doesn't READ well when scanning code.  Same with If THEN ELSE ENDIF vs. if () {} else {}

Again, we have the RAM.  We can use WHOLE words now.

C++ is just C with extensions.  C was developed what like in the 60's? and c compliers were fast because they didn't do alot of the same "error" checking such as out of bounds indexing that other languages did.  So for embedded, low resource systems, C was fine.  That's not an issue anymore.

And Waccoon, there you go bringing me into your own context again.  I was not comparing b+=1 to b++, I was comparing trying to do 2 things on one line using the ++ side-effect vs. making it more readable and doing it on 2 lines and less prone to logic errors.  Once again you try to put words in my mouth.  Nice try.  NOT!
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #624 on: February 02, 2006, 04:48:13 PM »
@lou_dias

To you and like minded people perhaps BASIC syntax is more readable. To myself and many others it is dramatically less readable than any C like language.

The size of syntax is absolutely naff all to do with RAM consumption, C was developed on Unix systems where even then this was far less of an issue than you seem to imply. The syntax is crisp and terse and very well structured. You might disagree, and you are welcome to, but your arguments that C is less readable is entirely subjective.
int p; // A
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #625 on: February 03, 2006, 05:19:43 PM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:

The size of syntax is absolutely naff all to do with RAM consumption, C was developed on Unix systems where even then this was far less of an issue than you seem to imply.


When you only an 80x25 text screen, C let you cram the most code into one screen.  Ever try scrolling on some of those old dumb terminals?

That's why it's ugly.  It's a moot point and if you've ever used the Visual Studio.Net IDE for VB, you see exactly how readable the IDE makes your VB code.  I'm sure it does the same for VC++ but when every line is filled with combinations of {}, @, ->, (), . and ; - it's still fugly.

Now mind you - alot of that is so you wouldn't have to scroll back up to see how you declare a function/variable.  Again, trivial by today's standards but an issue in a VT100 300BAUD dumb terminal.

It was a language reflective of the times back then.  JAVA is a cleaner rendition.
 

Offline Hattig

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #626 on: February 03, 2006, 06:51:13 PM »
First, until you actually use C, or Java, you shouldn't be commenting on it.

BASIC is an ass-backwards language, it teaches poor programming techniques, it looks really ugly on screen, and really is a language for beginners. VisualBasic only looks good because it interfaces with the entire Windows API.

C, a late 70's language, is a very clean language that anyone with half a brain can pick up quickly. It was designed by intelligent people and not because it could fit a lot onto an 80x25 display - a remarkably uninformed viewpoint!

C++ is very different when you start using the additional features. I personally don't like C++ however.

Java has a quite nice language structure and if it wasn't for some poor decisions at the GUI library level it would be the application language of choice in many areas now. C# has forced it to evolve again though, which is good.

Any programmer who can't handle curly brackets for blocks of code should shoot themselves in my opinion. Indentation of code is the natural way to read block structure - indeed Python went as far as removing all block keywords/symbols and using the indentation directly.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #627 on: February 03, 2006, 08:10:21 PM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:

When you only an 80x25 text screen, C let you cram the most code into one screen.  Ever try scrolling on some of those old dumb terminals? That's why it's ugly.


Just because you can densely pack C source code does not mean that this is how best to format it. So, you are saying C is ugly because it can be written legally with next to no formatting? What kind of argument is that?

I can write VB code just as badly and there are C source editors that will beautify your source automatically as you write it. What's your point, exactly?

Quote
It was a language reflective of the times back then.  JAVA is a cleaner rendition.


So, let's get this straight. You are saying that from a language syntax point of view, C/C++ are 'fugly' but Java is not so bad? :crazy:

Right, I mean it's not as if java's syntax is directly a subset of C/C++ or anything :-D

Take C/C++, take out pointer syntax, take out all preprocessor stuff, take out anything not defined 'inline' within a class, take out multiple inheritance, take out operator overloading, add a few keywords, an unsigned shift left operator, change subtly the meanings of one or two others and throw in more predefined classes than the average programmer can ever spend the time to fully learn and you have Java.
int p; // A
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #628 on: February 03, 2006, 09:01:18 PM »
Quote

Hattig wrote:
First, until you actually use C, or Java, you shouldn't be commenting on it.

BASIC is an ass-backwards language, it teaches poor programming techniques, it looks really ugly on screen, and really is a language for beginners. VisualBasic only looks good because it interfaces with the entire Windows API.

C, a late 70's language, is a very clean language that anyone with half a brain can pick up quickly. It was designed by intelligent people and not because it could fit a lot onto an 80x25 display - a remarkably uninformed viewpoint!

C++ is very different when you start using the additional features. I personally don't like C++ however.

Java has a quite nice language structure and if it wasn't for some poor decisions at the GUI library level it would be the application language of choice in many areas now. C# has forced it to evolve again though, which is good.

Any programmer who can't handle curly brackets for blocks of code should shoot themselves in my opinion. Indentation of code is the natural way to read block structure - indeed Python went as far as removing all block keywords/symbols and using the indentation directly.


I've always been comparing to Visual Basic (VB...VB.net), not BASIC... and why are curly brackets the definition of proper formatting?  Visual Studio has intelligent auto-indenting.  So I don't know where your complaints are coming from.

I've used alot of different languages.  That's why I AM complaining.
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #629 on: February 03, 2006, 09:04:38 PM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:

Take C/C++, take out pointer syntax, take out all preprocessor stuff


now you are starting to get the right idea

Like I said a cleanER rendition...

Again this is my opinion.  A million arguments that start with "but if ..." isn't going to change it.