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Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #584 from previous page: January 31, 2006, 09:42:45 PM »
LOL
 

Offline koaftder

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No title
« Reply #585 on: January 31, 2006, 10:42:14 PM »
 
 

Offline justthatgood

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Re: No title
« Reply #586 on: January 31, 2006, 11:27:28 PM »
Yeah!!!!  But I'm still not getting a GameCube though.  I would rather get something like a G5 or something.
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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #587 on: January 31, 2006, 11:52:10 PM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:

I already know C and C++. Guess what - C/C++ sucks ass.


You obviously don't *know* C or C++, otherwise you would *know* they don't "suck ass". To truly *know* a language you use it all the time.

It seems to me you may have had an introduction to it and you couldn't do it.

That don't mean it "sucks ass", it means you don't like something because you don't understand it.

BIG DIFFERENCE.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #588 on: February 01, 2006, 12:20:06 AM »
C/C++ sucks ass? Please excuse me whilst I go and laugh myself into a coma from oxygen deprivation :lol: :lol:

C/Objective-C/C++ are immensely powerful. Skill and imagination are your only realistic limits. That they integrate so well with code written in other languages only presses home the advantage these languages have already which is massive support and high performance. Lets face it, you want faster than well coded C, you end up doing asm.
int p; // A
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #589 on: February 01, 2006, 12:40:50 AM »
C/C++ 'suck' because that advantage of being 'powerfull' is at the same time it's biggest drawback. People easily mess with it, like using pointers and other abuse (inconsistent use of) of variables. Combine that fact with object-oriented programming and welcome in bug-land :-)
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #590 on: February 01, 2006, 12:49:28 AM »
People who can't code properly shouldn't bother at all.

Simple as. :-)
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #591 on: February 01, 2006, 01:01:41 AM »
Quote

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
C/C++ 'suck' because that advantage of being 'powerfull' is at the same time it's biggest drawback. People easily mess with it, like using pointers and other abuse (inconsistent use of) of variables. Combine that fact with object-oriented programming and welcome in bug-land :-)


Exactly.  I got an A in C and had an A in C++ until the take home final project that we were given a week to work on.  I went out of my way to make everything in the situation we were simulating an object.  I implemented every object-oriented feature (polymorphism, superclassing, friends...you name it) and it just crashed.  Narrowed it down to exactly what made it crash and checked it 20 times and asked others to look at it and noone knew why it just crashed.  It was an illegal reference...but it wasn't.  I ended up with a B because I failed the final.

That B made me give C++ the F.

Now I happily program database driven applications in VB.Net... which doesn't crash for no apparent reason when I instantiate objects.

This is 2006.  Code doesn't have to look cryptic anymore.  We have MEGABYTES of RAM to play with not 38k (Commodore 64).  It can look pretty and readable and still be fast.  Really it can.  Honestly, other than uber-geek bragging rights, why settle for C/C++?

And frankly, what makes C++ worse is the people who code in it.  You all know who you are.  You make your code o ugly, know one would dare modify your original source because no one can freaking read it!

PS,
To the person who wants a G5 - get a Revolution.
 

Offline pixie

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #592 on: February 01, 2006, 01:08:28 AM »
"Sucks ass" :-? something along the lines of: suck a {bleep}"?? :roll: :-D


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Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #593 on: February 01, 2006, 01:12:01 AM »
Allow me to continue my rant...

I mentioned it at the end.
Code maintenance is why you don't find C++ in the business world.  No one wants to maintain other people's C++ code in crucial business applications where a simple logic error results in huge corporate losses.

So you who find it so powerful and feel so proud of yourself for writing an obscure routine to get some task done in a way no one with an IQ under 169 will understand...  You will forever be a demo coder.  That just doesn't work in the business world where you have to document and revise code and enhance functionality and make things easier for your end users.

And your job will only be harder if you have to enhance the code of the guy who had the job before you who thought he was pretty smart as well.

Anyone here who also has an IT job knows what I mean.  The rest of you are hackers or hacks.  Atleast hackers can share there accomplishments for the good of all.  Hacks are just selfish and obsessed with their own geekness.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #594 on: February 01, 2006, 01:29:20 AM »
@lou_dias

Quote
Anyone here who also has an IT job knows what I mean.


You must work for somewhere worse than I do, then. By contrast most other places I've seen that use languages like C/C++ also use design tools and a range of systems and guidelines to ensure their codebase is clean, well documented and properly maintained. They simply don't have the time for people to sit there and write cryptic crap that nobody else can understand.

Quote
Code maintenance is why you don't find C++ in the business world. No one wants to maintain other people's C++ code in crucial business applications where a simple logic error results in huge corporate losses.


One of the worst places I have heard of is a multinational bank that has most of its software written and maintained in assembler (some variety for their workstations). I know some poor bugger who has to sit there all day maintaining that stuff. I was aghast when I heard that this was how they operated.

People use whatever technology they have invested time in. Your comment is therefore invalid. Sure new companies can use some new higher level programming language if they dont have any older systems to support, but contrary to your claim, C/C++ is use all over the buisness world as are languages even lower, like the example above.

Anyway, all that aside, why does the buisness use or non use of a language have any bearing on wether or not that language is suitable for your particular needs? Heck, plenty of places use cobol but I don't think I'll start using it for my own work :-)

Your post still reads "C/C++ sucks because I personally don't like it" rather than any real reason it might be inadequate. Heck, if you had just said it was not for you I doubt you'd be having to defend your position.
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Offline justthatgood

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #595 on: February 01, 2006, 01:37:55 AM »
@lou_dias

I have a Atari XEGS, 3 Sega Saturns, an Apple IIGS, and a XBox .  Why would I need another game console?  It's all nice and stuff to have the cool factor of hacking consoles, but too me I like having real computers.  Yeah.  The last Nintendo product I paid into was a Super Nintendo.  That was ages ago.  Nintendo has to do some serious making up before they get my trust in spending money in their products.  That's why I only have the Saturn (the other two I literally got for free), and didn't get the Dreamcast.  I remember Sega even yanked the development kit for the Saturn, and probably were going to expect me to cough up cash for the Dreamcast SDK.
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Offline koaftder

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #596 on: February 01, 2006, 02:09:52 AM »
Quote

lou_dias wrote:
Exactly.  I got an A in C and had an A in C++ until the take home final project that we were given a week to work on.  I went out of my way to make everything in the situation we were simulating an object.  I implemented every object-oriented feature (polymorphism, superclassing, friends...you name it) and it just crashed.  Narrowed it down to exactly what made it crash and checked it 20 times and asked others to look at it and noone knew why it just crashed.  It was an illegal reference...but it wasn't.  I ended up with a B because I failed the final.

That B made me give C++ the F.


So you are telling us that c++ sucks because in your limited
scholastic experience you didnt make the grade you wanted because you couldnt figure out a bug in your program?

This has to be one of the lamest arguments ive ever heard.

Quote

Now I happily program database driven applications in VB.Net... which doesn't crash for no apparent reason when I instantiate objects.

This is 2006.  Code doesn't have to look cryptic anymore.  We have MEGABYTES of RAM to play with not 38k (Commodore 64).  It can look pretty and readable and still be fast.  Really it can.  Honestly, other than uber-geek bragging rights, why settle for C/C++?


To say that any language generally is no good is an absurd statement. When starting a project you first define what the problem is, and how you intend to provide a solution. Every language has it's strengths and weakness. The goal is to pick a language or set of languages that fits. Youve got a lot of things to take into account, legacy stuff, the skill sets of the staff, speed of implimentation, etc. You seem to be doing db stuff, and you have skills with vb and not c, so obviously you went that route. If the boss is happy and you are still getting paid then you made the right decisions.

In a project i'm working on, an embedded device making use of an 8052 microprocessor, we had to pick a language. Our choices were basic, c, or assembler. We rulled out assembler off the top, as there is a lot of float math we need to do and float math in assembler can be very time consuming. We wanted to use basic, as it would make code review go quicker, allowing us to get to market faster, but in evaulating a few basic compilers for 8052 we found that many features we require were lacking. I evaualated several c compilers, picked the one that met our requirements and set out to start development.

And that started out with requirements documentation, implementation dox, flow charts and state diagrams. We have a coding standard, variable names have an order, comments are abundant, and source is peer reviewed. We didnt need to do this because we are writing software in c, we do this because this is how you write software that works. The procedures would have been the same regardless of what language we decided to use. The decade doesnt matter, use the right tool for the job.
[/quote]

Quote

And frankly, what makes C++ worse is the people who code in it.  You all know who you are.  You make your code o ugly, know one would dare modify your original source because no one can freaking read it!


Poorly written vb.net code isnt any easier to read than poorly written c code.
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #597 on: February 01, 2006, 02:10:34 AM »
Well your arguement for not programming in Cobol is the same reason as why you are programming in C++ for your current employer.

It's what was there when you got there.

I've work for 2 small manufacturing companies.  One was founded in the 80's and code was written in Foxpro by the then 16 year old owner's son.  The other set up shop in the early 90's.

The first moved up to Visual FoxPro 6.0 then I slowly did alot of stuff in VB6.0 and maintained the VFP.

Where I am now, an engineer coded some test equipment in LabView to control PLC's and other such devices.  Now I'm providing WIP systems and management tools in VB.NET.  It's all brand new.  They have an accounting system and I supplement it with my own stuff.

Legacy is why C++ and Cobol are still around in business.

As for defending my opinion...  Everything I that say is subjective is my opinion and needs no defending.  If I stated a specific fact with real measurable values such as performance figures, then I would need to back that up.  I gave MY reasons for not liking C++.  I never said that you absolutely can't do function foo() in C++.  I just said, it's uglier and I can make it more maintainable in another language.

People want to tout how compliers do a better job optimizing than you could do on your own in assembly.  If that's true and compiler technology has advanced (as it has) then C/C++ looses it's speed advantages and is left for "those" types of people I described above to dribble over.

Case in point:

a = b++;  /* C/C++ code */

vs.

b += 1   ' VB.Net code
a = b

Back in the 80's when RAM was tight, it would make sense that your source code could only be so big...heck back then they wouldn't have even put the comments in.  The compiler will compile those code snippets the exact same way...why make it ugly?  Also if I had made it:

a = ++b;

it would have different functionality and when I'm scanning code to make a change to meet a deadline, I don't need that extra layer of un-needed logical complexity to get the job done.

and for christ's sake, editors support more than 80 columns since like 1985, why do I still have to put a friggin semi-colon at the end of every friggin line?

It's it's own legacy that makes it ugly.
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #598 on: February 01, 2006, 02:20:41 AM »
@koftloader,

LOL, now you stand here judging my scholastic ability.
I used to code 8502 assembly in '86 when I considered myself a "hacker" with my trusty 128D.  You can judge me all you want.  I've forgotten more things than kids with CIS degrees today know.

I don't have the patience for any of that stuff anymore.  I'm in my mid 30's.  I have a full-time job.  I have rental property to maintain.

I don't have time to study code for a hobby.  To write my own kernal.  I plain don't want to.  I leave that to the people who are already experts at it because one guy in his bedroom isn't going to re-invent the wheel.  Now given a nice IDE with a proper API for creating applications to do specific tasks that I need done or get paid to do - now that I have time for.

Edit:
I mis read your post as 8502 not 8052...but the point is the same.
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: Time to celebrate!
« Reply #599 on: February 01, 2006, 02:26:26 AM »
Quote


Case in point:

a = b++;  /* C/C++ code */

vs.

b += 1   ' VB.Net code
a = b

Back in the 80's when RAM was tight, it would make sense that your source code could only be so big...heck back then they wouldn't have even put the comments in.  The compiler will compile those code snippets the exact same way...why make it ugly?  Also if I had made it:

a = ++b;


Your two snippets are not equivalent. With the c code, you assign the value of b to a first then you add one to b.

Your vbcode adds one to b then assigns that value to a.

Before you start getting into arguments about language semantics, maybe you should learn the language first?