potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP

[Louis Dias]

They claim that with the extra cache, clock speed and bus speed that exaclty 2x realworld performance is possible.

I think they went as faster as they could go without requiring a fan on the cpu.  To quite Iwata "small, effiecent and quiet".

GC multiplied by 2.5 (benchmark) is not a bad thing at all.  Add to that the 2 UBB 2.0 ports and built-in wireless capability.

Really, graphics whores and speed freaks can diss it all they want but Revolution is going to be the easiest to hack and also the easiest for real developers to code for.

Nintendo literally just upgraded the GC to create Revolution.  GC backwards compatability is in the hardware thru the natural virtue of the hardware upgrades.  I bet the GPU comes with a PPU instead of a DSP built-in and 32MB of ARAM instead of 16MB.  That PPU will be used for AI and physics letting the rest of the system do other things.  I can't believe they will leave the texture cache at 3MB...  I think that's just the cpu upgraded version of the devkit that was quoting that number.

In the end, Revolution will still have that awesome controller to reel in the masses.  And I believe they will come.

Also, Nintendo has some graphics patents up it's sleeve:
http://nintendo-revolution.blogspot.com/2005/12/is-displacement-mapping-last-secret.html

[MskoDestny]

lou_dias wrote:
They claim that with the extra cache, clock speed and bus speed that exaclty 2x realworld performance is possible.

So much for that whole 3-5x powerful bit eh? I guess their original statement of 2-3x more powerful may have been correct after all.

Really, graphics whores and speed freaks can diss it all they want but Revolution is going to be the easiest to hack

I don't see how you come to this conclusion. There were PS2 and XBox modchips long before there were any for the Gamecube and if I were Nintendo I would make sure to tweak the authentication enough to make sure the current mod chips don't work.

and also the easiest for real developers to code for.

Easiest to use to it's full potential perhaps, but if the recent rumors are true then you don't have to use the 360 or PS3 to their full potential to get better performance than the Revolution. All the extra complexity from writing games on the 360 is from the multiple cores, but even using a single core the 360 is more powerful than the Revolution as described in the recent rumors.

I bet the GPU comes with a PPU instead of a DSP built-in and 32MB of ARAM instead of 16MB.

Well the recent rumors suggest that the ARAM will stay at 16MB and unless they do throw in some crazy physics processor there's really no good reason for them to increase it.

That PPU will be used for AI and physics letting the rest of the system do other things.

PPUs aren't terribly useful for AI. As the name would suggest they're pretty much there exclusively to do physics.

In the end, Revolution will still have that awesome controller to reel in the masses.  And I believe they will come.

The controller uses a cool concept, but the execution screams compromise. It's attempts to be simple and approachable are undermined by its efforts to be good for the current game market (analog dongle and shell) and its efforts to be a good retro platform (turn it sidewise for NES, add the shell for everything else). In my mind these compromises defeat the purpose of having so few buttons and a remote-control like layout in the first place. If it wasn't button-sparse and remote control shaped it would be better for the other two purposes. The result is that its suboptimal for both.

The unwashed non-gamer and casual gamer masses is going to be hard to capture. These are people that don't buy game consoles. If anything they play games on their PC (because they already have it) or buy those little joysticks with built-in games that you plug into your TV. That's not to say that Nintendo can't capture that market, but it's hardly a slam dunk at this point.

[Louis Dias]

MskoDestny wrote:

lou_dias wrote:
They claim that with the extra cache, clock speed and bus speed that exaclty 2x realworld performance is possible.

So much for that whole 3-5x powerful bit eh? I guess their original statement of 2-3x more powerful may have been correct after all.

Yeah...but it's still an early version of the finished chip.  The final one could be faster.

Really, graphics whores and speed freaks can diss it all they want but Revolution is going to be the easiest to hack

I don't see how you come to this conclusion. There were PS2 and XBox modchips long before there were any for the Gamecube and if I were Nintendo I would make sure to tweak the authentication enough to make sure the current mod chips don't work.

The GC was hacked last because of popularity not design.  Revolution will probably employ a similar method.  The big copyprotection scheme was in the barcode on the GC discs.  I think Nintendo realizes that copy protecting the media is easier than copyprotecting the IPL.

and also the easiest for real developers to code for.

Easiest to use to it's full potential perhaps, but if the recent rumors are true then you don't have to use the 360 or PS3 to their full potential to get better performance than the Revolution. All the extra complexity from writing games on the 360 is from the multiple cores, but even using a single core the 360 is more powerful than the Revolution as described in the recent rumors.

Well, a single 360 core was said to be barely 2x more powerful than the Xbox's cpu.  So if developers are saying the benchmark is 2.5x more powerful than the GC, then I would say that Revolution can handle anything that's on the 360 today.

I bet the GPU comes with a PPU instead of a DSP built-in and 32MB of ARAM instead of 16MB.

Well the recent rumors suggest that the ARAM will stay at 16MB and unless they do throw in some crazy physics processor there's really no good reason for them to increase it.

The recent rumors are still based on the original Flipper.  The GPU is not finished yet.  Nintendo just said to target atleast double the performance.

The unwashed non-gamer and casual gamer masses is going to be hard to capture. These are people that don't buy game consoles. If anything they play games on their PC (because they already have it) or buy those little joysticks with built-in games that you plug into your TV. That's not to say that Nintendo can't capture that market, but it's hardly a slam dunk at this point.

That person will be able to play NES games online against other people.  That's who it will be a hit with.  Nintendo is attacking XBox Live head on.  Only Nintendo has a better catalog of games.  While Geometry Wars is a great game on XBL, who's really heard of it?  I just wonder how they will manage the "micro-transactions".

[MskoDestny]

lou_dias wrote:
Well, a single 360 core was said to be barely 2x more powerful than the Xbox's cpu.  So if developers are saying the benchmark is 2.5x more powerful than the GC,

A single PPE core on the 360 is said to have about the same performance as a 1.7GHz P3 on unoptimized code. The XBox CPU ran at about 733 MHz and had less cache than a proper P3. The 360 also has 4x the memory of the Revolution and will probably have a more powerful GPU as well.

then I would say that Revolution can handle anything that's on the 360 today.

I doubt it could handle PGR3, but that uses more than one core. The others are debateable I suppose, but that doesn't make the Revolution easier to develop for. Equal for a given graphical quality level, but not easier.

[Louis Dias]

I hear what you are saying but when developers already know how to develop for the GC, there's practically no learning curve for developiong for Revolution except for finding new performance limits since the api is practically identical.

[uncharted]

As Staf has already ponted out that adding MP to AROS would break the API... AmigaOS was simply never designed to support it...

Then what does the R stand for in AROS?

I wonder what the point of it is sometimes.  Sure adding MP would break the API, but when you're not running old applications (because you can't) what does it matter?  In order for something to run on AROS you need the source code anyway, why not try to be a bit more adventurous?

In 2005(nearly 2006!) what does AROS actually bring to the table?  Will AROS end up being remembered soley as that project that got rid of dithering in the colourwheel.gadget?

Amiga-like and Modern OS needn't be mutually exclusive.

[bloodline]

uncharted wrote:

As Staf has already ponted out that adding MP to AROS would break the API... AmigaOS was simply never designed to support it...

Then what does the R stand for in AROS?

I wonder what the point of it is sometimes.  Sure adding MP would break the API, but when you're not running old applications (because you can't) what does it matter?  In order for something to run on AROS you need the source code anyway, why not try to be a bit more adventurous?

The AmigaOS API was actually broken (rather the designers made a trade off) by design. Adding MP doesn't simply mean a recompile... it means rewriting the app.

In 2005(nearly 2006!) what does AROS actually bring to the table?  Will AROS end up being remembered soley as that project that got rid of dithering in the colourwheel.gadget?

It brings to the table, the option to add a feature like MP to AmigaOS, you have the source code, it's there, it's free... do with it whatever you like. If someone shoehorns MP into it and it works really well... then it will be accepted. All AROS gives you is options, something that as Amiga users we are not really used too.

Amiga-like and Modern OS needn't be mutually exclusive.

hmmm... Amiga-Like is not the same as AmigaOS :-)

[Louis Dias]

On a brighter note, I've recently heard from someone who is going to attempt to port AROS to the GC.  He put his system together for $151 and I just sold him an SD memory card adapter for $10 with shipping and paypal fee included.  So I guess he's up to $161 in costs.  Still the cheapest ~500Mhz PPC pc he could ever buy as he put it.

[JLF65]

That would be me. I was a little leery of posting in this thread because of all the arguing.  :-D

As to my motivation - well, I like PPC systems and the GC is really cheap these days. I was thinking of getting one anyway for a few games it has. Killing two birds with one stone and all...  :lol:

In fact, the way I found this thread was looking around for an SD Gecko for the GC since my only other choice was a similar device from Lik-Sang for $30 + S&H. I plan to keep folks here and at the AROS forum abreast of how it goes, so there will be plenty of time for more arguing the pros and cons of Amiga-like OSes on the GC.  ;-)

[Hattig]

JLF65 wrote:
 I plan to keep folks here and at the AROS forum abreast of how it goes, so there will be plenty of time for more arguing the pros and cons of Amiga-like OSes on the GC.  ;-)

Good luck!

[adolescent]

lou_dias wrote:
Still the cheapest ~500Mhz PPC pc he could ever buy as he put it.

Looked at the prices of older Mac PPC's lately?  You can get a B&W for well under $100 (not including monitor).  

[koaftder]

adolescent wrote:

lou_dias wrote:
Still the cheapest ~500Mhz PPC pc he could ever buy as he put it.

Looked at the prices of older Mac PPC's lately?  You can get a B&W for well under $100 (not including monitor).  

I got my 450 b&w powermac for 120, 20 gig drive, 256Mb ram, a year ago off ebay. It's got firewire, usb, and vga connector, and drives a 1600x1200 lcd just fine... I guess i got ripped, being that i could have gotten a game cube for a little less and all.

[Louis Dias]

b&w - black and white?
Yeah, you both got ripped off.

[koaftder]

lou_dias wrote:
b&w - black and white?
Yeah, you both got ripped off.

Blue and white case( actually mines more green and white ).

Yea i got totally ripped off, my game cube is so much more usefull than a system with 256mb ram, 20 gig drive and vga interface @ 1600x1200 (24 bit color too) running osx

[JLF65]

Yes, you can occasionally get older iMacs off eBay for under $200. I've seen the original 233MHz iMac for as low as $75. That is certainly the way to go if you just want a plain PPC system. I've got linux and AROS running on my iMac DV+, and do plan to work on native AROS for the iMac.

But $150 for a 486MHz G3 with 24M of fast SRAM is still very cheap. It's also easier to find a GC system for that price than an iMac for less than $200. Most used iMacs go for $300 to $400 depending on the amount of memory and size of the harddrive. It's rare to see better than the original 233MHz iMac with 32M of 66MHz SDRAM for less than $200.

If you are looking to run linux or OSX, go with the best iMac you can find on eBay. If you are looking to play games, go with the GC. It's just a matter of how you intend to use the system beyond any Amiga-ish usage. I've already got an iMac and was more interested in something that also played games. The A500 and A1200 were game machines that also ran AmigaOS programs. Using a GC to run AROS would continue that tradition nicely. While there are Mac games you could use on an iMac, there aren't nearly as many, nor are they as good as the games on the GC (with a few exceptions).

[koaftder]

JLF65 wrote:
Yes, you can occasionally get older iMacs off eBay for under $200. I've seen the original 233MHz iMac for as low as $75. That is certainly the way to go if you just want a plain PPC system. I've got linux and AROS running on my iMac DV+, and do plan to work on native AROS for the iMac.

But $150 for a 486MHz G3 with 24M of fast SRAM is still very cheap. It's also easier to find a GC system for that price than an iMac for less than $200. Most used iMacs go for $300 to $400 depending on the amount of memory and size of the harddrive. It's rare to see better than the original 233MHz iMac with 32M of 66MHz SDRAM for less than $200.

If you are looking to run linux or OSX, go with the best iMac you can find on eBay. If you are looking to play games, go with the GC. It's just a matter of how you intend to use the system beyond any Amiga-ish usage. I've already got an iMac and was more interested in something that also played games. The A500 and A1200 were game machines that also ran AmigaOS programs. Using a GC to run AROS would continue that tradition nicely. While there are Mac games you could use on an iMac, there aren't nearly as many, nor are they as good as the games on the GC (with a few exceptions).

Ive been pretty happy with my gamecube. Only have two games worth playing though, the 2 metroid games. The GC controller is nice. Ive always bought my consoles 2nd hand and one generation behind. It seems theres less than a dozen games worth playing during the life of a console, might as well get it when the games are under 20 bucks a pop.

It funny, on GC metroid prime never seems to drop a frame even when the scenes get complex, it's always rock solid. On other games like Super Mario Sunshine, sometimes simple scenes made the machine bog down to almost unplayable.

If you guys manage to hack a usb host controller onto the GC, you'll be able to drive a usb->VGA video card. Writing the drivers wouldnt be fun, but it would be doable.