potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP

[billt]

>Also, I've seen usb keyboard that act as a usb hub. They
>offer usb ports right on the keyboard so I still don't see
>the limitation there.

But ultimately this keyboard/hub combo must plug into a USB host port on the PC. If you don't have a host port to plug this thing into the GameCube, then no one is in charge of things, and the slaves are not being bossed around to actually do anything. Plug a bunch of slaves into the same USB hub, and see how well they communicate with each other. Realize that a hub is not a host of its own, it requires a true host to be involved. Hubs don't have USB stack software or know what a camera or disk-on-key or printer or mouse or keyboard are or how to talk to each different type of device, it just directs traffic.

And if the qoob is only a USB slave, then thre simply may not be any connecting circuitry in the thing allowing the Gamecube to control it. It may only have some control logic to flash the ROM and nothing more. That's not enough to let your keyboard boss around the gamecube's currently running user interface. Have you asked the manufacturers of qoob if it has host capability so Linux can use USB peripherals?


>with a 20 million unit installed base

How many of these have your qoob and other gizmos? Of those, how many are willing to pay for OS4? Of the non-qoob Gamecube owners, how many are willing to buy all the extra hardware and also pay for OS4? Is the total number of can and willing to pay for OS4 enough to justify the time and effort required to make OS4 run on Gamecube? I've not seen a compelling argument that there is.

Finally, is Nintendo interested in such a thing? If yes, it'd be happening already. If no, then it's effectively prevented from happening, as why would Hyperion want to sell an "illegitimate" piece of software that Nintendo could bankrupt them over?


You idea could be fun for some of us as users, but I'm just trying to be realistic, considering the business environment involved.

[MskoDestny]

lou_dias wrote:

OK, bear with me on the problems with it being a slave.

are you saying the the 2MB flashable memory shows up like a Removable drive on windows like plugging in a camera?

I'm sure it shows up as a device of some sort, probably just in Device Manager though.  I doubt it would show up as a flash drive since that would imply a filesystem which firmware isn't likely to have.

Also, I've seen usb keyboard that act as a usb hub.  They offer usb ports right on the keyboard so I still don't see the limitation there.

A USB keyboard with a hub is essentially just a hub with a keyboard attached to one of the ports.

 A serial bus supports I/O.  In AND Out.  Otherwise, plugging it in would never register with Windows that a device was plugged in.

Yes there's bidirectional communication, but the USB protocol is host-centric.  The USB host requests data from it's slaves and they send it, the opposite isn't possible.

Yes, the base Mac Mini is cheap ($499)...why would a windows user buy a Mac to be an Amiga?

Why would a Windows user buy a GC and all the requisite debris to run Amiga OS on it?  Heck, even if they have a Gamecube why are they going to buy the rest of the stuff to turn it into a computer running some OS they've never even heard of?

Also, porting issues aren't much different there.  Since I already own a GC my costs for the BBA, ps/2 adapters, SD card reader and Qoob chip add up to $120.

You forgot to add in the price of an SD card.  A 2GB card costs ~$140 at newegg. I suppose you could go lower, but the lack of substantial local storage would be a nuisance.  Sure there's networked volumes, but if someone has got a computer to share the volume why don't they just use that computer.  Obviously things are different for your personal desires, but you seem to be suggesting that this kind of solution would have broad appeal. $120 + $140 + $99 (cost of gamecube) is $359.  For $140 someone could buy a Mac Mini that would utterly destroy a GC computer performance-wise.

GC is a niche machine...blah blah blah...with a 20 million unit installed base...

But how many of those people have all the necessary other junk, a small percentage I'd wager.  Most people aren't going to go and spend money on hardware for their game console so they can try some OS they've never heard of.  You'd get more traction by making PearPC run OS 4.

[Tripitaka]

billt wrote:
 but I'm just trying to be realistic, considering the business environment involved.

So only the lawyers get rich, mmm..any lawyers out there prepared to chew the legal issues over for thier love of the Amiga? thought not.

[Louis Dias]

I already own 2 SD cards.  An 8MB and a 256MB.

Ok, so why doesn't Hyperion open source the HAL as well?  Then it could get ported to recognize GC hardware independently of the OS then maybe someone could send them a compiled HAL with some headers and request an install with this HAL and sell that.  Theoretically they never need to stay that the HAL is for the GC.

Then it could work on the Mac Mini as well...

@BillT
If I were an Amiga user and I could get OS4 on hardware that costs $200 or hardware that costs $900, what would be easier?  I'll wager there are more Amigans with Gamecubes then there are Amigans with A1's.

Also you ignore the face that I own a $12 adapter that plugs into the GC's controller port that gives me a keyboard/mouse ps2 port and there is already a linux driver for it.  So 2 of these in the GC's 4 ports give me keyboard, mouse and 2 controllers.

The SDL library is already ported to the GC(linux) and there are already homebrew 3d games running on the GC, including DOOM.

There is already a SEGA Genesis emulator on the GC: http://projects.sappharad.com/gcn/genplus/

a gcc port: http://www.devkit.tk/

...

So yes, I see a complete lack of interest in running homebrew software on a Gamecube.  I mean isn't the reason this stuff already exists because there is no market for it?
[Remove Sarcasm Cap]
Give these people a cool alternative and maybe you have a bigger market than exists than the current ever-shrinking market of Amigans.

-No more hardware(A1) that's expensive and always on back order because there isn't enough demand to justify a new batch...um because it's expensive...hmmm chicken or egg?

Gamecubes are a dime a dozen.

Since Nintendo sells licenses and not necessarily kits (alternate dev-kits are available from Metrowerks) this means that homebrew code should run on Revolution in GC emulation.  Since Revolution will support all GC software and hardware, any software that runs courtesy of SDLoad will run on Revolution.  Now depending on how it will be emulated is what will cause homebrew apps that can 'self-clock' to run faster or not and possibly even with better 3d graphics(more poly's) than on a real GC.

[Louis Dias]

billt wrote:

How many of these have your qoob and other gizmos?

Obviously enough to justify development of 2 mod chips (Viper and Qoob), Action Replay products (memcard-to-usb and memcard-to-SD), not to mention cube controller-to-ps2 port adapters... and keep these 'gizmos' in the $12-$50 price range.

GC enthusiasts aren't bickering Amigans.  Aleast not for another 10 or 15 years.

[billt]

>Also you ignore the face that I own a $12 adapter that plugs
>into the GC's controller port that gives me a keyboard/mouse
>ps2 port and there is already a linux driver for it. So 2 of
>these in the GC's 4 ports give me keyboard, mouse and 2
>controllers.

Sorry, I thought the discussion was about using the qoob's USB port... My mistake.


>Then it could get ported to recognize GC hardware >independently of the OS then maybe someone could send them a
>compiled HAL with some headers and request an install with
>this HAL and sell that. Theoretically they never need to stay
>that the HAL is for the GC.

There's still legal liabiliies there. Even if there's no laws broken, Nintendo could still drain Hyperion or Amiga Inc's life away in courts, and in the end win when they put our side into bankruptcy. I wouldn't want Nintendo swinging their lawyers at me, no sane person would.

Plus you need to either have proper hardware documentation to write drivers for, or go to great efforts (and thus great expense) to reverse engineer what the drivers need to do. Getting the documentation, Nintendo can say no or enforce their rules. Doing it the hard way, well, perhaps no one has the time to do this, or no one has the money to provide motivation to complete this task.

In my own case I'd also have ATI's lawyers on my back for your Linux proposition. My contract with them says no open source drivers for their stuff, so even if I had the interest and free time, I'd still get sued and bring down my employer with me. I ain't gonna do that. Right or wrong, I certainly don't personally have enough money to out-lawyer these guys, so I follow the rules I'm bound to.


>Gamecubes are a dime a dozen.

Didn't you just say they were $50 for a single used unit or $99 for a new one?

[billt]

>GC enthusiasts aren't bickering Amigans. Aleast not for another 10 or 15 years.

There's too many of them, and they have too many better things to talk about. They've got all those cool games, and all we have to discuss is cache coherency and DMA things it seems, or the business issues of porting to different cool hardware.

Long after Gamecube is abandoned by Nintendo and there's only a couple thousand people still using it, then they'll get an idea of what real life is like!

[DrBlue]

There is a reason the GC is so cheap and that is because anyone wanting to develop for the system must stump up a considerable amount of money (as opposed to a licence developers must buy the media (optical discs/cartridges etc) from Nintendo).  The system itself is sold at a loss.

Nintendo are renowned for being particularly ruthless towards anybody developing unlicensed products for their systems and do not hesitate to take legal action against anyone doing so.

This would have to be taken into consideration for anybody seriously considering porting OS4 to GC.  What would people rather have: a legitimate, licensed product endorsed by the manufacturer of the hardware it is to be used on or an illegal  hack? That isn't the way to see Amiga products on the shelves of your local PC World.

While I agree that the A1 board is expensive it is also equally true that if Eyetech had produced millions of units they would have been relatively cheap.  But would they have sold?  I know I wouldn't have taken that gamble.

After all is said and done, and if everyone is honest, we would have to agree that the A1 has been a wonderful and remarkable experiment which has been powered by peoples love of the Amiga and their refusal to see it die.  Given the choice of buying Nintendo hardware or Amiga hardware to run OS4, I'd rather give my money to Eyetech.

[Louis Dias]

billt wrote:

In my own case I'd also have ATI's lawyers on my back for your Linux proposition. My contract with them says no open source drivers for their stuff, so even if I had the interest and free time, I'd still get sued and bring down my employer with me. I ain't gonna do that. Right or wrong, I certainly don't personally have enough money to out-lawyer these guys, so I follow the rules I'm bound to.


>Gamecubes are a dime a dozen.

Didn't you just say they were $50 for a single used unit or $99 for a new one?

LOL, I mean a dime a dozen as far as where to get them.  but cheap too and you get a killer free game @ $99.

Anyway, what is stopping you from releasing an official linux ATI FLipper driver for the GC?  You obviously have the skills and contacts.  Just because Linux is free doesn't mean everything you install on it is.  Maybe you could bundle the driver with an optimized SDL library and sell that package.  Somehow it must be possible to make money off of linux products.  Heck, I remember Id selling Quake 1 or 2 for linux back in the day.

[Louis Dias]

DrBlue wrote:
There is a reason the GC is so cheap and that is because anyone wanting to develop for the system must stump up a considerable amount of money (as opposed to a licence developers must buy the media (optical discs/cartridges etc) from Nintendo).  The system itself is sold at a loss.

Nintendo are renowned for being particularly ruthless towards anybody developing unlicensed products for their systems and do not hesitate to take legal action against anyone doing so.

This would have to be taken into consideration for anybody seriously considering porting OS4 to GC.  What would people rather have: a legitimate, licensed product endorsed by the manufacturer of the hardware it is to be used on or an illegal  hack? That isn't the way to see Amiga products on the shelves of your local PC World.

While I agree that the A1 board is expensive it is also equally true that if Eyetech had produced millions of units they would have been relatively cheap.  But would they have sold?  I know I wouldn't have taken that gamble.

After all is said and done, and if everyone is honest, we would have to agree that the A1 has been a wonderful and remarkable experiment which has been powered by peoples love of the Amiga and their refusal to see it die.  Given the choice of buying Nintendo hardware or Amiga hardware to run OS4, I'd rather give my money to Eyetech.

Hey, I'm all for a licensed product.  If you read the whole thread, I've previously mentioned how Eyetech could develop an I/O expansion device similar to Nintendo's GBA Player that gives the Gamecube IDE, usb, etc...(maybe even more ram for a ramdisk) connections.  It's all possible.  That hi-speed serial port supports an 81MB/s transfet rate.  Such a device could be made inexpensively because there is no CPU & socket (which seems to be the big expense on the A1) to supply.

Nintendo makes money off of third parties by selling licenses.  Licensing is a contract and no 2 are the same.  Licensing can be a flat rate or based on units sold or some combination.

I'm all for a licensed OS4 for GC bundled with an Eyetech GC I/O Expander for $200.

[Tripitaka]

$200, :-o you jest sir. This is the Amiga marketplace after all. would you pay more? The chances are it would cost more than that if OS4 was bundled with it,maybe even without. I'd pay about £250 UK for such a product if it ever happens.

[mbueler]

(If you can put linux on it, you can put AOS 4.
And only $99, keyboard sold separately)

why would i want to do this?i would never buy a nintendo there for kids!(in my opinion that is).
 sorry i dont mean any harm with the above!dont shot me i only read the first post here.
 I WANT THE AMIGA TO LIVE AND HAVE A FUTURE!!!thats all!
I`ll leave now,bye.

[adolescent]

@lou

Do some research.  

Phantasy Star Online connects at 10Mb/s half duplex.  Therefore, anything that uses that exploit (ie. Qoob, NinjaMOD, etc. network boot) will use that speed.  The bus itself has a thoretical max of 27Mb/s but this is shared with the memory cards, etc.  If the gc-linux guys have gotten a 10mb/s full duplex connection working I don't know.  The software allows you to set 100mb/s full duplex but the bus can't keep up with it.

The 2MB of flash on the qoob is not a filesystem, it's firmware.  Yes, you can modify and reprogram the firmware.  But, the purpose is to upgrade when newer/better exploit methods are found.  Remember, these devices only purpose is to circumvent Nintendos barcode protection scheme.  (I'd say that there's probably 1-2% that would actually use it for homebrew development, the other 98-99% are just pirates)

Regarding porting to the Revolution.  Lets just wait until the vapor is cleared and the actual unit is out (or at least in 3rd party developers hands).  

BTW, how's the porting going?  :lol:

[Louis Dias]

If you read the forums, which I've glanced at, one user has gotten 100Mbit at half duplex to work.

how's the porting going

Well, I don't have the A/R usb or SD card adapters yet.  The latest version of PSO_Load doesn't even require PSO and can have you booting homebrew code in 10-15 seconds.

Keep laughing, btw, do you own an A1?

[Louis Dias]

Tripitaka wrote:
$200, :-o you jest sir. This is the Amiga marketplace after all. would you pay more? The chances are it would cost more than that if OS4 was bundled with it,maybe even without. I'd pay about £250 UK for such a product if it ever happens.

Yes, I/O chipsets are cheaper than dirt.  Don't you remember Alan R.'s ramblings about that (cpu + socket) being the main factor in the costs.  Figure $100-120 for OS4 and $80 for a relatively low volume southbridge (I'm sure adolescent will correct me if it's a northridge) chip and some sort of communications protocol for the Nintendo hi-speed serial bus and a plastic case like the GBA player with connector openings.  Heck, just 4 usb ports would be great.

[adolescent]

lou_dias wrote:
If you read the forums, which I've glanced at, one user has gotten 100Mbit at half duplex to work.

Like I said.  You can set the NIC to 100mb/s full duplex if you want.  But, the bus can not support recieving at these speeds.  Especially since it is also shared with the memory cards, sram, RTC, etc.

how's the porting going

Well, I don't have the A/R usb or SD card adapters yet.  The latest version of PSO_Load doesn't even require PSO and can have you booting homebrew code in 10-15 seconds.

I believe you'll still need PSO to do the initial install on the SDCard, unless they've figured out the format.  (Or, if you have a mod chip of course...) But, good luck.  Make sure to set your PC to 10mb/s half duplex.  :-D

Keep laughing, btw, do you own an A1?

No.  But I'll keep laughing.  Spending ~$250 to get GC-Linux running on your GCN is enough entertainment...